Save the Earth ? (dezbateri pe teme ecologice)

[PigBrother]

Si, ca sa vezi, probleme alea sunt fix in regiunile sarace. Dar, evident, apa pe care nu o risipim noi in Europa va ajunge ca prin minune in Sahel.

[oldshooterman]

Normal, pentru ca cei bogati si-au permis intotdeauna sa ocupe terenurile cele mai bune.

[bogdan george]

Deci problema e de natura economica, dupa cum de fapt a zis Pig de cateva posturi bune.

P.S. Ce bogati trebuie sa fim, de vreme ce am ocupat o tara asa de imbelsugata!

[Kaiapo]

Sincer tot n-am inteles, cu cel afecteaza pe unu din africa care traieste in desert ca eu imi iau cada de 2 metrii cubi pt ca e ieftina apa? Am vreo influenta directa? Daca consum mai putin o sa ajunga si la el vreodata? Sau este vorba doar de bun simt...

[oldshooterman]

Problema se pune la modul complex care intr-o prea mica masura include notiunea de bun simt. E o mare criza de apa potabila la nivel mondial, asa cum e criza si de alimente sau alte elemente care sustin viata si dezvoltarea oamenilor. Oamenii nu prea au treaba cu bunul simt cind e vorba de bunastarea proprie. Problema e ca in timp lucrurile se "regleaza" tot datorita oamenilor. Incet, incet, criza se agraveaza, cei din zonele sarace si afectate (sint afectate si zone locuite de bogati) se dezvolta si au nevoie crescuta de apa (in cazul asta), vor avea si cu ce sa o plateasca si se vor gasi "intreprinzatori" care sa "exporte" (asta se intimpla si acum) apa ieftina catre cei care platesc mai bine. Pretul e in crestere peste tot si va costa tot mai mult sa umpli cada de 2 metrii cubi.

[oldshooterman]

Situatia animalelor salbatice se afla intr-o criza mult mai adinca decit cea a oamenilor care au provocat-o:"Wildlife crisis worse than economic crisis – IUCN"
IUCN - Wildlife crisis worse than economic crisis – IUCN

[Redy]

Originally Posted by oldshooterman

Amatorii pot studia un fenomen asemanator, mult mai aproape, la coada lacului Bicaz.

Ai de capu` meu cate gunoaie sunt acolo. Pai si nimeni nu se sesizeaza ? Aia care trec pe acolo nu pot face o reclamatie ceva ? Am ajuns atat de nesimtiti sau lenesi incat nu ne mai pasa ?

Educatia se face in familie iar majoritatea romanilor sunt niste nesimtiti pentru ca parintii lor au fost la randul lor asa sau pentru ca nu i-a dus capu sau nu au stiut ce inseamna a fi civilizat.

O mare problema la noi in tara sunt gradinile zoologice sau numarul mici de parcuri. Daca nu duci un copil la o gradina zoologica care sa arate decent, deci probabil nu la una din Romania, si nu il inveti sa aprecieze animalele si natura atunci acea persoana nu va dezvolta o sensibilitate pentru acest lucru si va deveni mai mult ca sigur indiferent. Nu stiu cum este Delfinariul din Constanta, nu mai tin minte, am fost cand eram mic insa de curand am fost la cel din Valencia si ca turist am fost placut impresionat de ce am vazut. Ma gandesc ca pentru un copil sa vezi asa ceva cand esti mai mic te face putin mai "bun" desi e mult spus.

Din pacate cei care nu conduc acum sunt niste comunisti. Suna urat, ca si cum ar spune un cocalar unei persoane mai in varsta in autobuz. Ei au trait in acel regim si au capatat toate problemele lui. Nu exista un politician roman caruia sa ii pese de asa ceva, nu exista legi pentru a preveni asa ceva, nu exista interes in a rezolva astfel de probleme. Pentru cativa zeci de ani ramanem cu astia pentru ca cei cu adevarat interesati de asa ceva sunt prea putini pentru a schimba ceva, deocamdata.

In Germania stiu persoane care isi iau cateva minute din timpul lor liber ca sa sorteze gunoaiele pentru ca le pune in locul unde trebuie. In gara, in statia de autobuz si mai peste tot gasesti cosuri de gunoi pentru reciclare. La noi tot ce au gasit comunistii nostri ca o solutie este sa puna 3 tomberoane imense pe strada.

PS: In Bragadiru, cred, sunt 3 cosuri de gunoi in mai putin de 20 de metri. Daca tot vor sa faca bani si sa umple orasul de cosuri de gunoi de ce nu fac unu pentru hartii, unul pentru sticla si unul pentru plastic ?

[oldshooterman]

Situatia nu are nici o legatura cu "comunistii". In perioada comunista invatamintul punea mult mai mult accent pe bun simt ("cei sapte ani de-acasa"), in China comunista nu vezi asemenea mizerii la drumul mare.
In Cluj-Napoca, centru universitar si oras mult mai curat decit altele, la intrarea in Facultatea de "Mediu" unde este amenajat un loc de fumat cu banci si multe cosuri de gunoi, cu greu gasesti un muc de tigara in cosurile de gunoi! In schimb e impinzit totul in jur (inclusiv zona verde) de mucuri de tigari, etc... Intrebind intr-o zi un grup de studenti care fumau acolo (si evident ca aruncau mucurile de tigari pe jos) la ce cred ei ca folosesc cosurile alea de gunoi din fata cladirii pe care scrie "Facultatea de Mediu", au raspuns indignati ca ei nu sint studenti la "Mediu", doar au alocate sali de curs acolo, de la alta facultate!... Deci ce rost mai are sa vorbim despre ceilalti care traiesc in afara oraselor considerate mai "civilizate"?

[jet li]

Nu inveti sa "apreciezi natura" mergand la Zoo ci traind in natura. Chiar pentru putin timp si nu neaparat in padure.
Eram mic, in vacanta mergeam sa facem baie in rau. Din sat. Consideram raul ca fiind "al nostru", si eram impotriva oricui arunca gunoaie pe acolo. Eram prea mici sa "facem ceva", dar ii vedeam pe aia care aruncau ca pe niste "prosti" care habar nu au ce fac, ce sa faci "au crescut si s-au prostit". Cam asa ceva.
Normal ca tot satul acolo ducea gunoiul. Sau mergeam si mancam ce gaseam prin padure - alune, si ce mai era pe acolo. Cand ai propriul interes sa mananci alune sau sa faci baie in rau - intelegi de ce vrei sa "protejezi natura".
Mai si pescuiam in raul ala.
Semi experienta vietii "in natura" tot te invata ceva.

Mai jos ipocrizie si negarea realitatii. De catre adulti. Societatea moderna si viata "moderna". Mancarea creste pe raft. Sunt impotriva "factory farming", dar nu aia e problema - e doar un efect, problema e alta, si totul incepe din scoala.

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddly...ddlyEnoughNews

LONDON (Reuters) - A group of schoolchildren who reared a lamb from birth and named it Marcus has overridden objections by parents and rights activists and voted to send the animal to slaughter.

Marcus the six-month-old lamb has now been culled, the head teacher of the primary school in Kent confirmed on Monday, after the school's council -- a 14-member group of children aged 6 to 11 -- voted 13-1 to have him killed.

The decision has provoked fury among animal-loving celebrities, animal and human rights campaigners and the parents of some of the children, and led to threats against Lydd primary school and its teachers, according to a member of staff.

http://www.primitivism.com/machine-heads.htm

This false self is observable in the frozen facial expressions, stereotypic gestures, and unexamined behavioral patterns of the general public. This false self determines much of our everyday lives, so that we are seldom the origin of our actions. We lapse into the false self at the first sign of danger, under stress, or simply because it is the path of least resistance.

http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter5-5.php

Schools train individuals to respond as a mass. Boys and girls are drilled in being bored, frightened, envious, emotionally needy, generally incomplete. A successful mass production economy requires such a clientele. A small business, small farm economy like that of the Amish requires individual competence, thoughtfulness, compassion, and universal participation; our own requires a managed mass of leveled, spiritless, anxious, familyless, friendless, godless, and obedient people who believe the difference between "Cheers" and "Seinfeld" is worth arguing about.

Ceva despre pesti:
http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.p...c,52624.0.html

The Canadian DFO (Dept of Fisheries and Oceans) was probably 10-15 years or so ago completely bought out by the salmon farming industry... permits handed out for salmon farms at the mouths of the major spawning rivers, completely ignoring the concerns of those who worried about the effect on the wild stocks. But it's not hard to predict what happens when you raise a bunch packed in together at high densities on artificial food... it's like the difference between a cow in a feedlot vs. a wild buffalo. They get sick. So the farmed fish are fed antibiotics. But they are still a breeding ground for parasites. And all of the wild salmon have to run the gauntlet past these farms to get to and from the spawning ground. A resident fish scientist in British Columbia (sorry can't remember her name) was concerned about this about 10 years ago and tried to get the DFO to do some research, and was told to mind her own business. So she did the research herself, with an organized sampling protocol, sampling wild salmon juveniles on their return to the sea and counting sea lice, comparing rivers with farms vs. rivers without. Sure enough, all of the rivers with salmon farms have wild salmon infested with lethal sea lice loads; wild salmon in the other rivers are healthy. It's not rocket science after all. So how did the DFO respond?... instead of thanking this woman for doing their job for them on her own budget, they CHARGED HER WITH COLLECTING SALMON WITHOUT A PERMIT.

[Redy]

Originally Posted by jet li

Nu inveti sa "apreciezi natura" mergand la Zoo ci traind in natura. Chiar pentru putin timp si nu neaparat in padure.
Eram mic, in vacanta mergeam sa facem baie in rau. Din sat. Consideram raul ca fiind "al nostru", si eram impotriva oricui arunca gunoaie pe acolo. Eram prea mici sa "facem ceva", dar ii vedeam pe aia care aruncau ca pe niste "prosti" care habar nu au ce fac, ce sa faci "au crescut si s-au prostit". Cam asa ceva.

Lucru imposibil intr-un mediu urban. Gunoaiele mari se strang in mediul urban.

[oldshooterman]

In mediul urban colectarea gunoaielor e mai bine organizata decit la tara. La tara toti arunca gunoaiele peste tot, in special in apa, pentru ca ei considera ca apa ia gunoaiele si le duce in "alta parte", eventual le distruge. Gunoaiele alea care se string pe Bicaz (care sint adunate din cind in cind cu "fonduri europene", dar se acumuleqaza la loc in citeva luni) provin de la localitatile insiruite pe Riul Bistrita, doar Vatra-Dornei e un orasel mai rasarit in amonte.
Orice riu de munte care altadata a fost chiar un loc de agrement devine o groapa de gunoi dupa ce trece de primele 1-2 localitati.

[jet li]

Redy, uite un filmulet, poate nu l-ai vazut inca. Despre educatia aia - fiecare copil lar trebui sa aiba sansa sa experimenteze viata pe la tara. Mai intelege cate ceva despre "natura".

The Story of Stuff with Annie Leonard

Apoi, mai e poluarea prin despaduriri si simpla agricultura. Cauta "dead zones in oceans". Cauzate de ingrasamintele artificiale, care ajung in rau apoi in oceane, acolo provoaca inmultirea algelor care consuma tot oxigenul din apa.

Si niste articole pe care le-am mai dat :

The oil we eat: Following the food chain back to Iraq By Richard Manning (Harper's Magazine)

The Gospel of Consumption | Orion Magazine

Si o poza :

Sidi Toui National Park, in the southern half of Tunisia.
Native vegetation can be seen returning inside the borders of this protected park (approx. 7 kilometers wide), established in 1993 to protect the region against desertification. The effects of continued agriculture, overgrazing and drought can be seen on the surrounding arid landscape

[jet li]

When Farming Is Just About Money: New Zealand’s Biggest Dairy Farmer Allows Calves to Starve to Death

What’s the real cost of producing this much milk on pasture?

People are jumping up and down over the dead calves in this ugly incident. Yes. That’s definitely horrible. However, look at the mouth of a river in a region where intensive dairying is underway. See that brown water? That’s the dirt washing out to sea. Too many animals. Not enough trees (cleared to make cow pastures). Lots of rain. All of this adds up to soil erosion.

In New Zealand, we’re proud of the fact that animals are raised on pasture, but most people don’t stop to think about what it takes to grow all of that grass.

Sustainabilitate :
The most isolated tribe in the world? - Survival International

The Sentinelese are believed to have lived on their island home for 60,000 years.

Cum ar arata insula aia dupa vreo 10 ani de "dezvoltare multilaterala" ? Mai intai toti locuitorii s-ar bate intre ei sa-si gaseasca un loc unde sa-si vanda viata - tocmai ca sa "traiasca" (ce concept). Nici macar sa se bata intre ei pe mancare - cea ce un trib nu face niciodata. Mult mai rau. Ca un fel de zombie : "eu munca, eu iau bani, eu mananca !". Nu mai stiu nimic, nu mai ii intereseaza "protejarea naturii" - ce natura cand nu au habar nici de unde vin banii cu care sunt platiti ? Si daca apar probleme - incep sa strige "jos guvernu" atat stiu. Poate nu prima generatie, sigur urmatoarele, si odata ce se baga si "scoli" s-a terminat.

Apoi in scurt timp ar ajunge ca prin Madagascar sau Haiti. Sau Hawaii:

YouTube - Discover Kauai

YouTube - Discover Kauai

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."

"One does not sell the land people walk on." ...
Crazy Horse

"When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don't ruin things. We shake down acorns and pine nuts. We don't chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the white people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill everything. ... the White people pay no attention. ...How can the spirit of the earth like the White man? ... everywhere the White man has touched it, it is sore."

[XSamSung]

Sunt impotriva "factory farming", dar nu aia e problema - e doar un efect, problema e alta, si totul incepe din scoala.

Mai documenteaza-te... cei cu care te asimilezi considera ca aceasta ar fi una dintre cele mai mari probleme. Si sincer, le dau dreptate - Factory Farming = Factory Taste, sa nu mai zic de sanatate. Animale crescute cu medicamente care sporesc cresterea, dar in acelasi timp provoaca si diferite mutaii genetice, boli... Cum crezi ca a aparut gripa aviara, gripa porcina sau alti virusi inexistenti in trecut? Dincolo de aceste boli, sa zicem "produsele considerate sanatoase" au si ele efecte nedorite, care numai sanatoase nu sunt. Si astfel slanina (de la tara) a ajuns mai sanatoasa, ba chiar mult mai sanatoasa ca si carnea de pui (din factory farming), mai ales cand vine vorba de colesterol.

Cica ar fi o solutie pentru "salvarea planetei" si anume: - scadem aproximativ 90% din populatia oamenilor. Undeva pe la un miliard de oameni si printr-un program de control al natalitaii, nu ar mai fi loc de probleme nici pentru oamenii ramasi, nici pentru natura. Si inca ceva, cei 10% ramasi trebuie trebuie sa slujeasca noul sistem orbeste.

Asa ca imi pare rau jet li, dar nu te incadrezi - nici eu, din pacate. Dar lasa, nu fii trist, moartea noastra o sa serveasca unui scop mai inalt: Saving the planet and the new zombie rase...

[Rush]

sa scape caii de ochelari apoi sa vezi cum fug cainii.

[XSamSung]

Cainii sunt turbati, nu mai stiu ei de frica si oricum, la randul lor si ei au niste stapani: "porcii".

[jet li]

The oil we eat: Following the food chain back to Iraq—By Richard Manning (Harper's Magazine)

America's biggest crop, grain corn, is completely unpalatable. It is raw material for an industry that manufactures food substitutes. Likewise, you can't eat unprocessed wheat. You certainly can't eat hay. You can eat unprocessed soybeans, but mostly we don't. These four crops cover 82 percent of American cropland. Agriculture in this country is not about food; it's about commodities that require the outlay of still more energy to become food.

About two thirds of U.S. grain corn is labeled “processed,” meaning it is milled and otherwise refined for food or industrial uses. More than 45 percent of that becomes sugar, especially high-fructose corn sweeteners, the keystone ingredient in three quarters of all processed foods, especially soft drinks, the food of America's poor and working classes. It is not a coincidence that the American pandemic of obesity tracks rather nicely with the fivefold increase in corn-syrup production since Archer Daniels Midland developed a high-fructose version of the stuff in the early seventies. Nor is it a coincidence that the plague selects the poor, who eat the most processed food.

Food is politics. That being the case, I voted twice in 2002. The day after Election Day, in a truly dismal mood, I climbed the mountain behind my house and found a small herd of elk grazing native grasses in the morning sunlight. My respect for these creatures over the years has become great enough that on that morning I did not hesitate but went straight to my job, which was to rack a shell and drop one cow elk, my household's annual protein supply. I voted with my weapon of choice—an act not all that uncommon in this world, largely, I think, as a result of the way we grow food. I can see why it is catching on. Such a vote has a certain satisfying heft and finality about it. My particular bit of violence, though, is more satisfying, I think, than the rest of the globe's ordinary political mayhem. I used a rifle to opt out of an insane system. I killed, but then so did you when you bought that package of burger, even when you bought that package of tofu burger. I killed, then the rest of those elk went on, as did the grasses, the birds, the trees, the coyotes, mountain lions, and bugs, the fundamental productivity of an intact natural system, all of it went on.

Si oamenii spun : sa muncim, mai mult ,mai mult. De ce ? Putem trai fara coca cola. 82% din terenul arabil din USA - folosit - si nu pentru alimente. In acest timp 3% din forta de lucru a USA - lucreaza in agricultura. Ce fac restul ? Se joaca de-a economia si transforma planeta in bani.

Irigatii - daca faci irigatii cu apa din subteran - poti sa distrugi solul. Contine saruri care se depun. Ce sa mai zic. Tot ce facem - nu reusim decat sa distrugem.

Seceta in California

Another year of pumping salt-laden water from underground aquifers could kill their soil, they say. Board members warned that the Westlands Water District on the valley’s west side is the first to be hit by the crisis, but the water problems are spreading to the state’s other agricultural regions.

[jet li]

O lama. De ras. Am vrut sa o arunc la gunoi. Impreuna cu altele, intr-o punga. Si m-am gandit : sunt caini care mananca din gunoaie, nu pot s-o arunc asa. Nu pot sa stau linistit, fara sa-mi pese daca se intampla ca vreun caine sa inghita lama aia.
Mare lucru. Nu am aruncat eu o lama - mare schimbare.

Dar, vedeti aici :

current work

These photographs of albatross chicks were made just a few weeks ago on Midway Atoll, a tiny stretch of sand and coral near the middle of the North Pacific. The nesting babies are fed bellies-full of plastic by their parents, who soar out over the vast polluted ocean collecting what looks to them like food to bring back to their young. On this diet of human trash, every year tens of thousands of albatross chicks die on Midway from starvation, toxicity, and choking.

To document this phenomenon as faithfully as possible, not a single piece of plastic in any of these photographs was moved, placed, manipulated, arranged, or altered in any way. These images depict the actual stomach contents of baby birds in one of the world's most remote marine sanctuaries, more than 2000 miles from the nearest continent.

[ixtl]

Ma-ntreb daca o sa aibe o finalitate...
YouTube - Al Gore sued by over 30,000 Scientists for Global Warming fraud John Coleman

[Double Jay]

Hot Air

The internet is on fire this morning with confirmation computers at one of the world’s leading climate research centres were hacked, and the information released on the internet.
A 62 megabyte zip file, containing around 160 megabytes of emails, pdfs and other documents, has been confirmed as genuine by the head of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit, Dr Phil Jones.
In an exclusive interview with Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition, Jones confirms his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to have come from his organisation.
“It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.”