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Thread: Incest - morala, societate, tabu-uri

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    Incest - morala, societate, tabu-uri

    Acest thread a inceput ca multe altele undeva unde nu ii era locul. Chiar daca pare inutil, am sa va rog sa tineti discutia in limitele bunului simt si sa nu o deviati (foarte mult).

    Problema este urmatoarea. De ce sunt oamenii atat de oripilati de incest? De ce nu pot avea o relatie sexuala cu sora mea, presupunand ca as avea o sora? De ce (in cazul consensualitatii) sa fiu pedepsit pentru o crima care nu exista decat in ochii societatii?

    Nu vreau sa fac o incitare la incest. Vreau doar sa analizam demonii din noi (sau lipsa lor in cazul celor din categoria "usa de biserica"). Vreau sa privesc in abisul intunecat si sa las abisul sa priveasca inapoi la mine. Voi iesi mai castigat din asta.
    Mintea umana, constiinta, este mai mult decat suma instinctelor. In fiecare secunda au loc mii de operatii de feedback, backfeed, verificari si contraverificari. V-ati gandit vreodata de ce ideea de incest provoaca repulsie unora si vise erotice altora? Dincolo de instinct exista o explicatie rationala?


    Luati in calcul si urmatoarele argumente:

    If incest were generally allowed, said Malinowski, it would disrupt this socialization, which is essential for society. For example, if fathers and mothers were allowed to have intercourse with their children, what would their role be? Would they still be able to guide their children as parents? Or would their role change to that of lover? What we expect of people as parents and lovers are quite distinct matters. Specifically, to permit incest would lead to role conflict--the expectations and obligations that are attached to one role would conflict with those attached to another role. As a result, said anthropologist George Murdock (1949), to avoid these strains on the family every society developed some form of an incest taboo.

    Because the incest taboo developed somewhere in the ancient past, leaving us no records, we are left with theorizing, not fact. This explanation of roles and socialization that anthropologists have developed may be correct, but we don't know for sure. We do know that every human group has some form of the incest taboo, and that it pushes children outside the family for marriage (what we call exogamy). By doing this, the incest taboo extends people's relationships and forces them to create alliances. In early human history, this would have been important for survival as alliances would have diminished war making between small human groups. In contemporary society, uniting people in larger networks leads to more cohesion (or unity). This functional analysis of the incest taboo, however, does not explain its origins, which are lost in history.

    One theory suggest that the taboo expresses a psychological revulsion that people naturally experience at the thought of incest. Most anthropologists reject this explanation, since incest does in fact occur.

    Another theory is that the observance of the taboo would lower the incidence of congenital birth-defects caused by inbreeding. Anthropologists reject this explanation for two reasons. First, inbreeding does not lead to congenital birth-defects per se; it leads to an increase in the frequency of homozygotes. A homozygote encoding a congenital birth-defect will produce children with birth-defects, but homozygotes that do not encode for congenital birth-defects will decrease the number of carriers in a population. If children born with birth-defects die (or are killed) before they reproduce, the ultimate effect of inbreeding will be to decrease the frequency of defective genes in the population. Second, anthropologists have pointed out that in the Trobriand case a man and the daughter of his father's sister, and a man and the daughter of his mother's sister, are equally distant genetically. Therefore, the prohibition against relations is not based on or motivated by concerns over biological closeness.

    Finally, Claude Lévi-Strauss has argued that the incest taboo is in effect a prohibition against endogamy, and the effect is to encourage exogamy. Through exogamy, otherwise unrelated households or lineages will form relationships through marriage, thus strengthening social solidarity.

    I reject this notion that evolution completely prescribes ethics. Nature is amoral absent intelligent beings who make moral judgements. Once the capacity for moral reasoning is established, it does not follow that our ethical laws must necessarily mimic our evolutionary predisposition. While in the cases of selection against brother-sister incest avoidance is easy to see how evolution can bring about an outcome that we now judge to be moral, it can just as easily effect traits that we now believe immoral. Few people would believe that man?s evolutionary desire to replicate his genetic material in children would ethically justify licentiousness. Few would believe that women should be dominated by men simply because in nature males tend to be stronger and dominant. Discovering a scientific explanation for man?s dominance of women in human history would not justify humanity reverting to sexism. This is a simple counterexample suggesting that discovering a scientific basis for a trait does not a priori suggest the desirability of its expression in society.
    Last edited by Jinxie; 04-06-2004 at 17:59.
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  2. Back To Top | #2
    Registered User Cris's Avatar
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    Probabil ca cele mai reale sunt considerate consecintele medicale: fizice si psihologice.
    "Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. [..]Up to this very day there is no alternative to it. " -
    Jürgen Habermas

  3. Back To Top | #3
    Citeste citatul care se termina cu "Therefore, the prohibition against relations is not based on or motivated by concerns over biological closeness." Ai un contra-argument? Daca nu, renunta la partea cu consecintele fizice.
    Iar partea cu cele psihologice... chiar trebuie sa pun un bold pe cuvantul consensual?
    Oricum, aparent societatea i-a etichetat deja pe cei cu astfel de tendinte ca "anormali" si "devianti". Nu cred ca cineva poate deveni mai "psihopat" decat este deja daca tendintele deviante ii sunt incurajate in loc de a fi inhibate.
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  4. Back To Top | #4
    E vorba cred de observatia empirica a consecintelor genetice. Asta e ratiunea "interzicerii" that is. In plus am observat ca in general animalele, care te-ai astepta sa se imperecheze pe apucate, nu "gresesc" niciodata cind e vorba sa deosebeasca un animal "safe" de o ruda. Cred ca in general instinctul asta se aplica si la om.

  5. Back To Top | #5
    Iar partea cu cele psihologice... chiar trebuie sa pun un bold pe cuvantul consensual?
    o ipoteza.. parintii(dusi cu pluta! ) isi educa fiul fiica intr-o asa maniera incat raporturile sexuale in familie sa apara ca normale. toata treaba se face treptat si programatic.. asa ca orice indoctrinare de calitate. efectele asupra psihicului copilului sunt incalculabile deoarece practic o buna parte al esafodajului de valori morale pe care societatea s-a cladit.. ii lipseste. crezi ca mai are sens sa vorbesti de consens in conditiile astea? e ca si cu acei copii teroristi.. consensul practic isi pierde semnificatia.

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    Registered User Cris's Avatar
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    Btw, Eva Green rulez in The Dreamers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309987/)
    In rest, francezi tot francezi iar frantuzoiacele.. ce sa mai vorbesc...
    "Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. [..]Up to this very day there is no alternative to it. " -
    Jürgen Habermas

  7. Back To Top | #7
    legat de biological closeness: putin probabil ca societatile in care au aparut tabu'urile legate de incest sa fi avut habar de genetica (asa cum o stim noi). mai probabil ar fi ca or fi observat rezultatul unirii intre rude de diverse grade (nu stiu de ce imi staruie in minte copilul cu coada a lui marquez) si or fi trasat liniile.

    legat de consecinte fizice: poate mai demult, dar acum, cu metode de contraceptie (ok, nu sint 100% eficiente, dar...) nu se mai ajunge la aberatii genetice (sau, in fine, n'ar trebui sa se intimple decit acolo unde nu exista farmacie la colt de strada sau prezervative parasutate). problema ramine la nivel moral.

    ca sa repet (a treia oara?) ce am zis azi: incestul creaza mai multe probleme decit rezolva (sau, cel putin, daca e sa ma transpun in situatie si sa pun in balanta avantajele si dezavantajele, as alege clar orice altceva, chiar si mersul la curve de 120kg).
    [Sparkky] anybody alive?
    [Tigga] nope, the zombie apocalypse came. you would have thought we'd all be ready for it, given it's a fairly common game type
    [Tigga] but no, we all got zombiefied
    [Tigga] you're the only one left, apart from the dude who will sell you guns

  8. Back To Top | #8
    Zi sa innebunesti coane Fanica. Ia uita-te tu pe Discovery, Animal Planet si National Geographic la emisiunile despre lei, tigri si gheparzi (astea imi sunt mai proaspete in minte).
    In plus, ce zici de crescatorii de animale de rasa?

    "This goes with the idea (also erroneous) that inbreeding doesn't occur in nature. Man's cultural taboos on inbreeding is largely behind all these myths. Inbreeding (line breeding) & out crossing are essentially neutral tools used to effect certain ends. It is certainly true that such a thing as inbreeding depression occurs when there is a loss of diversity among (some particular) genes in some individuals sometimes in some species, but there is also such a phenomena as out breeding depression that occurs when you "mess with" a 'good' set of genes by introducing "new blood" into a breeding program. All this is demonstrated in wild as well as zoo populations as well as various domestic animal breeding programs"
    One of the most inbred lines of dogs in the world has the lowest breed incidence of hip dysplasia and the highest success rate as superior companion dogs--the seeing eye German Shepherd."

    "The suggestion is that a little inbreeding is no bad thing, because it preserves useful combinations of genes that are adapted to your environment."
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  9. Back To Top | #9
    Ia uita-te tu pe Discovery, Animal Planet si National Geographic la emisiunile despre lei, tigri si gheparzi (astea imi sunt mai proaspete in minte).
    la emisiunile acelea ai vazut probabil ca masculii ajunsi la o anumita varsta pleaca din grup si-si cauta teritorii in general departe de grupul de origine. e modul naturii de a asigura amestecul genelor. bineinteles ca nu e vorba de morala acolo ci de instinctul care le spune s-o ia din loc. daca insa animalele se afla intr-un mediu controlat de om(zoo) si sunt tinute impreuna se vor imperechea. chiar daca asta se intampla si in natura cred ca e extrem de rar.

  10. Back To Top | #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ild12
    o ipoteza.. parintii(dusi cu pluta! ) isi educa fiul fiica intr-o asa maniera incat raporturile sexuale in familie sa apara ca normale. toata treaba se face treptat si programatic.. asa ca orice indoctrinare de calitate. efectele asupra psihicului copilului sunt incalculabile deoarece practic o buna parte al esafodajului de valori morale pe care societatea s-a cladit.. ii lipseste. crezi ca mai are sens sa vorbesti de consens in conditiile astea? e ca si cu acei copii teroristi.. consensul practic isi pierde semnificatia.
    Daca raporturile sexuale in familie sunt considerate normale pentru copilul respectiv, inseamna ca efectele (negative) asupra psihicului copilului respectiv sunt calculabile la zecimala. Sunt 0 (zero). Daca e fericit si se simte bine, care e problema?
    Te deranjeaza pe tine, care esti indoctrinat altfel. Dar pe el nu il deranjeaza, pentru ca nu a invatat ca ar trebui sa il deranjeze.
    E la fel ca esafodajul de axiome cretine pe care e cladita societatea. E ok sa inveti copilul de mic sa manance spanac, ca e papa bun si are fier. Uite, Popeye mananca. Ei bine, spanacul nu e bun si nu numai ca nu are fier, consuma fierul din organism. La fel ca si soia, care are mult mai multe dezavantaje decat avantaje. Societatea nu are intotdeauna dreptate si regulile nu trebuie aplicate arbitrar, ci de la individ la individ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karg
    ca sa repet (a treia oara?) ce am zis azi: incestul creaza mai multe probleme decit rezolva (sau, cel putin, daca e sa ma transpun in situatie si sa pun in balanta avantajele si dezavantajele, as alege clar orice altceva, chiar si mersul la curve de 120kg)
    Daca ar fi sa ne luam dupa filozofia "nu pot sa fac asta pentru ca as crea mai multe probleme decat rezolv" n-am mai face dracu' nimic. Si ajungem la problema de alegere: cum ar fi sa fi obligat de societate sa faci sex doar cu rudele de gradul I?
    Daca e alegerea celor doi si nu afecteaza pe altcineva, de ce nu o respecta societatea?
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  11. Back To Top | #11
    Interbreedingul este prezent in natura in probabil aceeasi proportie in care oamenii si-o trag pe neve impotriva legii . In cadrul procesului evolutiv specimenele rezultate din interbreeding pornesc cu handicap si genereaza ramificatii care ajung la exctinctie naturala daca se produce interbreeding in cascada.
    Crescatorii de animale de rasa practica un interbreeding minim chiar in coditiile in care fondul genetic este nesatisfacator. Cel putin asa scrie la carte. Si oricum, exemplul acesta este in defavoarea "incestului la liber". Eu am avut ciine de rasa, si problemele genetice pe care le avea erau infioratoare. In fapt, daca nu l-as fi "intretinut artificial in viata" practic ciinele nu ar fi ajuns niciodata la maturitate. Era un alsacian

    "The suggestion is that a little inbreeding is no bad thing, because it preserves useful combinations of genes that are adapted to your environment."
    Asta e gluma de concluzie.

    Daca te deranjeaza interzicearea "coercitiva" a incestului ca practica sexuala consensuala, pot sa-ti relev faptul ca certificatul de casatorie se de pe baza analizelor medicale. Si iti poate fi refuzat.

  12. Back To Top | #12
    Nenea Johnny, desi ti-am zis sa citesti citatele din primul post, ti-a fost lene.
    E dovedit stiintific ca inbreeding-ul duce la defecte genetice doar daca parintii au defecte genetice. Daca parintii sunt sanatosi, in-breeding-ul duce la curatarea "piscinei" genetice de genele care nu sunt bune si ofera un mediu propice pentru selectarea celor care sunt mai adaptate la mediul respectiv.
    Deci, controlat si in conditii propice, incestul este chiar benefic.

    Ce zici tu e un bau-bau din ala tip legenda urbana, ca povestea cu masturbarea care produce orbire si face sa creasca par in palma. Sa fim seriosi.

    Problema este cat de raspandita este aceasta practica. Daca 10% dintr-o populatie de 10.000.000 de locuitori ar practica incestul timp de 10 ani, n-ar fi nici o problema. Daca asta ar deveni o practica generalizata, atunci ar fi repercusiuni negative.
    Deci practic societatea inhiba artificial o tendinta pentru ca ea sa nu devina normalitate. La fel ca si homosexualitatea, care in ultima perioada nu mai este un tabu. Cel putin la nivelul care era. Sa ne asteptam ca si incestul sa devina OK in cateva decenii?
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  13. Back To Top | #13
    Lasamaaaaaaaa, lasamaaaaaaa!
    Ce sa citesc buey, citatele alea incropite pe cerdac la shokata expirata? Intoarce-te la orele de genetica din scoala si la drosophilla melanogaster, nu mai ciuli urechea la toti uritii. Bineinteles ca in cadrul procesului de segregare sansele sa se intilneasca genele recesive sint mici in prima etapa. Dar asta inseamna ce, ca sa se dea cupoane sa ai voie la doua incesturi si 4 betii dupa care devii om serios?

  14. Back To Top | #14
    Daca nu chiuleai de la orele de genetica (chiar, se facea genetica pe vremea ta, dinozaurule?) sa bei Brifcor in parc cu prietenii, stiai ca nu toate genele recesive au efecte negative. Oricum, de ce ar fi mai valabil ce am invatat la scoala decat ce citesc pe Internet?
    Si oricum, desi am neglijat sa spun (in threadul asta), vorbeam de incest fara reproducere. Metode de contraceptie exista din belsug. Sa zicem de dragul discutiei ca as fi dispus sa imi fac vasectomie daca primesc un card de incest fara consecinte legale.
    E mai OK, acum, Gogule? E mai cald afara acu' ca am inchis geamu'?
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  15. Back To Top | #15
    Daca raporturile sexuale in familie sunt considerate normale pentru copilul respectiv, inseamna ca efectele (negative) asupra psihicului copilului respectiv sunt calculabile la zecimala. Sunt 0 (zero). Daca e fericit si se simte bine, care e problema?
    ceea ce nu intelegi e ca nu are sens sa vorbesti de fericire in contextul absentei alegerii. ori copilul, conditionat fiind, n-a avut aceasta posibilitate.

    Te deranjeaza pe tine, care esti indoctrinat altfel.
    aici ai un pic de dreptate. aversiunea fata de incest e datorata in parte modului in care societatea formeaza individul.

    Daca parintii sunt sanatosi, in-breeding-ul duce la curatarea "piscinei" genetice de genele care nu sunt bune si ofera un mediu propice pentru selectarea celor care sunt mai adaptate la mediul respectiv.
    dar asta nu inseamna totodata si reducerea fondului gernetic? si cine spune ca din gene bune ale ambilor parinti ies sigur tot gene bune? e foarte importanta diversitatea genetica(inclusiv defectele genetice) pentru ca pana la urma ea e baza pentru o selectie eficienta. selectie care nu e esential sa scoata doar campioni cat e esential sa scoata indivizi cat mai diferiti. altfel specia dispare.

  16. Back To Top | #16
    "si cine spune ca din gene bune ale ambilor parinti ies sigur tot gene bune?"
    Genetica si statistica.
    " e foarte importanta diversitatea genetica(inclusiv defectele genetice) pentru ca pana la urma ea e baza pentru o selectie eficienta. selectie care nu e esential sa scoata doar campioni cat e esential sa scoata indivizi cat mai diferiti. altfel specia dispare."
    Am depasit stadiul selectiei naturale pe baza genetica. Mecanismele de selectie sunt acum semnificativ diferite. Si oricum, eu vorbesc de cazuri izolate de incest nu de incest ca o practica generala. Daca societatii ii este teama ca ar deveni o practica comuna (scuzati cacofonia), atunci inseamna ca e ceva atractiv la incestul asta.
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  17. Back To Top | #17
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  18. Back To Top | #18
    Genetic Sexual Attraction

    Because of the revulsion aroused by incest, and the stigma attached to anyone who admits experiencing GSA - let alone those who embark on sexual relations with a parent or sibling - the condition remains obscured by myth, tainted by smutty innuendo, under-reported by sufferers and, worse, virtually ignored in academic circles. Although, occasionally, a story involving GSA is given predictably lurid tabloid coverage, ignorance prevails. Why GSA occurs only in some reunions, whether certain people are more predisposed to GSA than others, or whether it manifests itself differently between parents and children or siblings, is simply unknown. Above all, GSA raises serious questions about what factors influence sexual attraction: are the origins of GSA social, environmental or biological?
    God I hate people. There is not a bus big enough to run over all of the people that I hate - Sebudai.

  19. Back To Top | #19
    Daca societatii ii este teama ca ar deveni o practica comuna (scuzati cacofonia), atunci inseamna ca e ceva atractiv la incestul asta
    e la fel cu orice interdictie. atrage. insa nu uita ca esti intr-o societate care accepta foarte greu chiar homosexualitatea(si nu e vorba doar de societatea romaneasca ci de "satucul" planetar). pusa in fata incestului cred c-ar lua-o razna..

  20. Back To Top | #20
    0v3rc10k3ru
    Guest
    Conform Bibliei ....Eva a fost blestemata sa plece in lume sa faca copii multi .....copii care s-au "imperecheat" intre ei ......omenirea s-a nascut din incest (cititi Biblia cu atentie)
    Incestul in religiile crestine e interzis desi crestinismul se ghideaza dupa Biblie....

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