China - o noua putere mondiala

[evilgheorghe]

Doamne fereste! Unde am pomenit eu ca ar fi pe forum? Progresul nu il neg. Dimpotriva, as vrea sa nu il mai vad doar la nivel economic.

[dixy]

Originally Posted by evilgheorghe

Nu contest rezultatele fenomenale ale Chinei. Totusi, cand vine vorba de statistici, prefer niste surse neutre si cat de cat credibile. Ca realizari epocale am vazut destule.

Iti ajung cifrele oficiale de import/export publicate de administratia americana? Inmultesti cu vreo 2, 3 si afli valoarea actuala a produselor chinezesti in America.

[valh]

Eu credeam ca vorbesti de salariul beleregului chinez. Merita sa fie inmultit macar cu 2,la cat produce moca pentru statisticile tale.

[evilgheorghe]

Care este legatura intre import/export si numarul de televizoare sau de masini de spalat la suta de locuitori, despre care era vorba, de fapt, aici?

[dixy]

Cred ca mama' dracu', aproape tot ce am prin casa e fabricat in China. Pana si amarata de dacie Solenza, pe care nu o banuiam deloc, mi-a aratat un prieten ca fabrica de la Pitesti a comandat in China niste piese nu se stie de care in 2004-2005. Calculatorul e absolut chinezesc, doua tembelizoare waporware, pe care scrie cica, Made in EU sunt facute in China, tft-ul e made in China. Masina de spalat e si aia made in China, aragazul la fel... Singurul meu noroc este ca am cumparat un aparat de fotografiat Fuji. Si la cat ii urasc japonezii pe chinezi, clar ca nu este chinezesc. Am mai cumparat din targ un telefon Nokia si dupa ce am bagat numarul de inregistrare pe site la Nokia, nu apare ca fiind original. O fi si ala chinezesc...

[Strangelove]

dar de ce ne-ar pasa noua de nivelul de trai al chinezilor? sau de (ne)dreptatea sistemului lor politic? ne-ar putea interesa, asta da, dar sa ne pese?
iar pe mine ma intereseaza mai mult probabilitatea ca stranepotul meu sa invete chineza la scoala si felul in care China ar putea incepe sa-si exercite si o altfel de putere decat cea economica in lume.

ia sa vedem, intr-un razboi dintre China si Rusia cine-ar castiga?
glumesc, desigur.

[valh]

Neica Dixy,nu evita subiectul. Cand China va exporta la fel ,si salariul mediu acolo va fi de 1800 de dolari,atunci sa te minunezi. Pana atunci e o talharie acolo! Fac dumping,subventioneza comunistii costuri de productie, practic cheltuie 1 % din cat cheltuie o companie serioasa pe acelasi produs (ca deh,aici tipati ca vreti drepturi si protectie sociala ,in schimb pupati in cur China care-si bate joc de cetatenii ei!)! Ce e asa greu de inteles?Baga in olimpiade miliarde in conditiile in care bugetul educatiei e 10% din costurile festivalului , ii doare in duda de protectia sociala, a mediului ,etc! Voua nu va convine America,America ce aloca 500 de dolari fiecarui membru parazit si va convine China. Asta e ipocrizie!

Ce as vrea sa salivati si voi ca romanii de dinainte de 89 dupa oleaca de libertate! V-ati saturat de ea! Laudati comunistii acum!

[dixy]

Originally Posted by valh

Neica Dixy,nu evita subiectul. Cand China va exporta la fel ,si salariul mediu acolo va fi de 1800 de dolari,atunci sa te minunezi. Pana atunci e o talharie acolo! Fac dumping,subventioneza comunistii costuri de productie, practic cheltuie 1 % din cat cheltuie o companie serioasa pe acelasi produs (ca deh,aici tipati ca vreti drepturi si protectie sociala ,in schimb pupati in cur China care-si bate joc de cetatenii ei!)! Ce e asa greu de inteles?Baga in olimpiade miliarde in conditiile in care bugetul educatiei e 10% din costurile festivalului , ii doare in duda de protectia sociala, a mediului ,etc! Voua nu va convine America,America ce aloca 500 de dolari fiecarui membru parazit si va convine China. Asta e ipocrizie!

Ce as vrea sa salivati si voi ca romanii de dinainte de 89 dupa oleaca de libertate! V-ati saturat de ea! Laudati comunistii acum!

Asa, si urla, stimate cetatean. Bozgorul ala, proprietarul RDS a cumparat de pe alibaba.com telefoane mobile. Care aproape ca functioneaza. Copii dupa Nokia. Dar ce era interesant - in timp ce Nokia era 4-5 milioane, de la RDS le primeam gratis. Dumping cumva? O sa ingroape RDS-ul si vodafone si orange si zapp si cosmote si romtelecom. Fac dumping, pentru ca au cu ce. Nici macar "ciscourile"' lor nu sunt originale, sunt made in China. Si aproape ca functioneaza...

[valh]

Iextraordinar,sunt impresionat la lacrimi de rds-ul tau! Fac dumping pentru ca au fraierii de muncitori acolo ,platiti cum tu nu ai vrea si atunci cand vor sa faca greva (ce e aia in China? ) sunt calcati cu tancul ! Ma lasi! Ai macar 20 de ani? Nu cred! Dar daca ai veni la mine sa te angajez cu 130 de euro pe luna ,mi-ai da cu tifla...

[dixy]

Si mai ce vrei? Gandeste serios si fii matur, te rog.

[valh]

Cred ca am vazut zeci de mesaje ale celor care nu aveau nimic de spus ,dar care ii rugau pe ceilalti sa fie maturi! Oare cat o fi de greu de inteles ca ,o economie care se vrea superioara,mondiala si universala ,pentru a fi stabila ii trebuie forta de munca bine platita si calificata. Ii trebuie programe sociale,medicale (sau nu e nevoie,moare unu ,apare altul?) .Altfel risca sa explodeze. Oare cum ar arata o America sau Europa a caror muncitori ar avea salariu mediu de 100 de dolari ? Fugiti toti prin Europa,America,la multinationale,sa castigati bani muuuulllttttti,fugiti fratilor si in China! Sau nu va convine?

A da, stiu,Ipodul de China e al mai ciumeg!Altceva?

A,apropos,cat mi-ai cere salariu pentru niste configurari de GPS-uri? Hai ca poti.

[ladyatrix]

Originally Posted by ild12

hehe s-a spus ca nu sunt televizoare. s-a demonstrat ca de fapt sunt. in aceste conditii desigur se spune ca e irelevant faptul ca sunt si trecem la next level, calitatea programelor.

cam asta este in mare parte discursul anti-china. plin de gauri datorate necunoasterii situatiei (ceea ce e oarecum normal), de prejudecati care atunci cand sunt demontate se intorc in alta forma. pentru ca, nu-i asa?, nu se poate ca in china sa fie lucrurile relativ ok si in progres fata de trecut. acolo trebuie sa fie rau, pentru ca e comunism.

s-a demonstrat ca sunt televizoare acolo unde sunt (adica la oras) si ca nu sunt acolo unde nu sunt (adica la sat). si cum majoritatea populatie in china traieste la sat, iaca, nu prea sunt televizoare. asta e rau mai alescand judeci progresul si welfare-ul in nr de skyscrapere si de mobile pe cap de cetatean care traieste intr un stat nedemocratic.faptul ca ai convingeri de stanga te face sa judeci argumentele partinitor. si nici in china nu ai fost, ca sa fi mai putin ignorant. asta asa, ca sa dau o replica din acelasi registru cu cea data de tine. si by the way, scapi cu totul, dar absolut cu totul din vedere esenta: nu zice nimeni ca nu e <relativ> bine pt ei, ce zice lumea e ca nu ii invidiem- din punct de vedere al valorilor europene nu e bine. geaba poze cu skyscrapere, geaba enumerari de telefoane mobile. deci geaba zice abluim: <luati drept model china> ca noi nu inghitim gogoasa.

[ablium]

Stiu ca acum cativa ani se spunea ca ce e facut in China=gunoi. Dupa ce am iesit si eu prin alte tari, m-am lamurit ca in China nu se fabrica numai porcarii de calitate dubioasa. Probabil ca noi in Ro importam numai gunoaie si de asta a aparut termenul "chinezisme". Daca stati sa va ganditi, toate echipamentele cu care intrati acum pe net sunt "made in China". Daca aveti net sau telefon RDS, trebuie sa stiti ca toate echipamentele lor sunt de pe alibaba.com. Chiar m-am mirat acum un an cand a aparut o gagica de la Rds la usa cu o clona de Nokia care costa cateva milioane in magazin si mi l-a dat pe gratis. .

While probaqbly a half of products in the department stores in US are made in China, I can not find an English word that is equivalent to “chinezerie”.

Since you know alibaba.com, let me tell you a true story. I had a lunch with the founder of alibaba.com in a restaurant at Silicon Valley in 1997, who came to visit US from China. During the lunch, he told us that he wanted to build a web for China Yellow Page (book for business phone number). The guy graduated from a third class Chinese university and he seems did not know much about what was going on in the world. Honestly speaking, I looked down him and I thought that his project was just a joke. A few years later, I heard his name again and learned that he had secured some funding from Softbank and his company had grown quite large. Later, I read a news saying that Yahoo had invested several billions of dollars in his company to purchase 30% of the company stocks. After internet bubble burst in year 2000, most US B2B (business to business) internet companies collapsed and the stock values of these companies plunged. Today, completely out of my expectation, this guy with humble background had built alibaba.com the world largest B2B portal with stock values of multi-billion dollars.

Originally Posted by AxA

Please name 10 world known Chinese scientists, 10 painters, other artists, architects, famous engineers etc. People THAT MATTER.

Originally Posted by Erethorn

P.S. Apropo de ce spunea AxA: Stiti cati laureati ai premiului Nobel are China ? Ghici gicitoarea mea....

Originally Posted by dixy

In principiu tehnologia se inventeaza in Eu, e pusa in fabricatie in Sua si apare de 5 ori mai ieftin la chinezi peste 2 ani. Orice ar fi. Pana si cladirile show-off de la olimpiada au fost concepute de altii. Totusi, desi nu au o gandire inovatoare pot produce la pret de dumping si nu neaparat de proasta calitate.

China has not won a single Nobel Prize so far. What a shame!
However, there are several Nobel Prize winners who were born in China but worked in USA.
There are four China-born physics Nobel Prize winners and two US-born ethnic Chinese won Physics Nobel Prize. There are many world known Chinese scientists, architects, and engineers working in US. I. M. Pei was one of leading architects of 20th century, who was the designer of the controversial Louvre Pyramid in France. Other world known scientists and engineers including the discoverer of high temperature superconductor, pioneer of optical fiber communication, chief designer of Clay supercomputer, chief designer of IBM supercomputer “Deep Blue” that defeated the world chess champion Garry Kasparov, co-inventor of first birth control pill … Chern was one of leading mathematicians of 20 century. Yo-Yo Ma is the world best cellist today. ..

Awarding Peace and Literature Nobel Prize is sometimes politically biased. In the year 1989 when Tian An Men event happened in China, Nobel Peace Prize was given to Dalai Lama. A Nobel Literature Prize was given to a Chinese living in France for his literature work in describing the stories of China during Culture Revolution. However, almost all Chinese, including myself did not knew him and his literature work when he won the prize. Many Chinese writers say that his works are garbage in terms of literature values. I often have a question, why no Nobel Economics Prize is awarded to a Chinese economist while China's ecomony did amazingly well in last 30 years. Also, I think that a Chinese biologist, whose work in hybrid rice increased China's rice production by 30%, deserves a Nobel Prize in biology, I believe that humanity benefited more from his work than from any other biologists' work.

The question is why the oversea Chinese did quite well while Chinese inside China performed so poorly. To answer this question, one has to learn a little about Chinese history and world history. China was the world most advanced country before 15th century. Since 15th century, China gradually declined, reaching the bottom at the beginning of 20th century when joined force of eight world powers invaded China. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the country was beset by civil unrest, major famines, military defeats, foreign occupation. The stupidity of Great Leap Forward and Culture Revolution in late 1950s to early 1970s were also disasters for the development of Chinese society. The country simply did not have enough economic resources to foster scientific research as the society was struggling for solving the food supply problem. At the end of 1970s, the university enrollment was merely 110 thousands students a year when college entrance examination was resumed after Culture Revolotion.

Regarding the spirit of innovation, ancient Chinese was quite innovative. Here is a list Ancient Chinese invention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

A rising country often has to go through four different phases, imitation, digestion, improvement, and leading. Last year, when I visited one of European largest industrial companies in Germany, the host told me the story of how Germans were copying British industries in mid 19th century and eventually German surpassed British in the beginning of 20th century. The development of Japanese auto, electronic, and optical industries is another example. Due to the size of China, the scale in imitating the products of western companies and business operating methods, in particular American operating methods, has caught world attention and often accusation. However, from historical perspective, it is just a normal process.

The attached are two articles in Nature, the world most respected science journal.

[ild12]

ce zice lumea e ca nu ii invidiem- din punct de vedere al valorilor europene nu e bine

iar asta e relevant pentru ca...?
si lumea spune mai mult de atat, citeste threadul.

[ladyatrix]

Originally Posted by ild12

iar asta e relevant pentru ca...?
si lumea spune mai mult de atat, citeste threadul.

ba citeste tu si spune-mi de cate ori (ne) invita ablium sa luam drept exemplu china

[evilgheorghe]

In the year 1989 when Tian An Men event happened in China, Nobel Peace Prize was given to Dalai Lama

Doamne ce inconstienti! Cum de nu i l-au oferit marelui Deng? Si nu esti mandru de Dalai Lama?

[Extra3OO]

Ablium, it's more important to have inventions THIS Century not some 6000 or 60 yrs ago.

And if you divide that number to your population you get the real image of China.

[ablium]

^
^
Read my previous post
http://forum.computergames.ro/35887592-post329.html
Huawei cited in my post was ranked number 4 company in patent filling , after Matsushita of Japan, Philips, and Siemens last year. It was not too bad for a company with history of only 20 years.

See the listing in this news.
http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/art...icle_0006.html

[Extra3OO]

Your explanation do not stand because many of the today "inventions" started in a basement, like a hobby or passion. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, (Napster - if you remember) and so on started small. They did not win the maket by some technical improvement patented in the crowd but because they Invented a NEW market, they Changed the landscape, so to speak.


Creativity is the biggest power of the west, not replication with small improvements. Fundind and research/improvement/expansion came After the big ideea, not before. Stock market is for investments and funding that ideea not for lottery, is for taking risks not just for fun, like yours.


China has not invented something BIG in the last 200 yrs or so. You could fund and encourage as many guvernamental projects as you like for this, until you will have a free market, some passion and a healthy competition you cannot even speak in this domain, you lack the most important argument, individual motivation. You want to be the first but as a nation, not as a singular person.


I really don't think that you could become a billionaire in China when you're views are openly against the guverment. And this may be the most important thing in an open market, freedom of speech and freedom of choice. But when you must compete from the beginning with the biggest corporation on earth (china), who can use any means to force you or make a bigger factory just like yours and right next to you, it's no wonder that you have such a tiny number of "small start-ups" per person.

Recent history is not an argument anymore, you had 20 yrs to start something. Instead of having a single public factory in a whole city or region you could have dozens of private ones doing different things, not only one type of zipper in a entire city like you do now.

This is competition, this is creativity (to survive). After that you could speak of patents (witch btw, you don't even respect so much, you can see this by looking to the so many copies and fakes you make even today, in any domain, from the iphones to the bmw or mercedes).

[ablium]

Originally Posted by Extra3OO

Your explanation do not stand because many of the today "inventions" started in a basement, like a hobby or passion. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Yahoo, (Napster - if you remember) and so on started small. They did not win the maket by some technical improvement patented in the crowd but because they Invented a NEW market, they Changed the landscape, so to speak.

Which of my explanation does not stand because Microsoft, Yahoo, and Google started as small companies?

Microsoft did not create any new market and it did not have any major invention either. The success of Microsoft is mainly due to the excellence of its business operation and its luck resulted from a blunder of IBM. In early 1980s, IBM did not envision the potential of personal computer and decided to use Microsoft DOS operating system, which was not even developed by Microsoft and was purchased from another smaller company for less than $50,000. This decision of IBM was the biggest mistake in IBM corporate history. Microsoft incrementally improved its products and then, with the advantage of controlling operating system, defeated its competitors that were initially market leaders.

Word Processor was not invented by Microsoft and it was first developed in Wang Laboratories (a computer company founded by a Chinese immigrant and once the third largest computer company in US after IBM and Digital Equipment). Before Microsoft Word appeared in market, there were Word Star, Latex, Word Perfect, and other word processors. Before Microsoft Excel, there was Lotus123. Before Microsoft Explorer, there was Netscape. Microsoft Window, a GUI based operating system, was a copy of the operating system of Apple Computer, which used the technology developed by Xerox.

Yahoo and Google are typical success stories of star-up companies in Silicon Valley. Yahoo and Google are both founded by graduate students in Stanford University in Silicon Valley. In Silicon Valley, there are hundreds of venture capital firms specializing in selecting and investing business model and technology ideas with the potential of commercial success. Most of companies invested by venture capital firms eventually fail, but a few of them come out with great success.

Yahoo did not have any major technology invention and rather it was just a success of a business model using available internet technology. As graduate students, Jerry Yang and David Filo created a web site that gave a directory of the important web sites in mid 1990s, which is by no means considered as a technology invention. The web site received millions of hits and provided a possible platform for advertisement and later it received fund from venture capital for the company to grow.

Google did have some invention in the algorithm of search engine, which was developed by Larry Page and Sergey Brin in their graduate research projects. Google received multi-million dollars of funding from venture capital firms, which allowed Google to hire many highly qualified TI professionals from all countries in Silicon Valley and allowed the company to grow quickly. The history of Google agrees well with what I wrote "Even if a genius can have a brilliant idea, without sufficient funding, works of many qualified R&D professionals, and industrial infrastructure, the brilliant idea can not become a real innovation considering the complexity level of today's technology.”

Originally Posted by Extra3OO

Creativity is the biggest power of the west, not replication with small improvements. Fundind and research/improvement/expansion came After the big ideea, not before. Stock market is for investments and funding that ideea not for lottery, is for taking risks not just for fun, like yours.

China has not invented something BIG in the last 200 yrs or so. You could fund and encourage as many guvernamental projects as you like for this, until you will have a free market, some passion and a healthy competition you cannot even speak in this domain, you lack the most important argument, individual motivation. You want to be the first but as a nation, not as a singular person.

China fell behind Western countries in social-economic development and China did not have big invention in last two hundred years because of far more complex reasons than your handwaving argument.

Originally Posted by Extra3OO

I really don't think that you could become a billionaire in China when you're views are openly against the guverment.

Which person in other countries has become a billionaire when his view is openly against the government?

Originally Posted by Extra3OO

And this may be the most important thing in an open market, freedom of speech and freedom of choice.

A greatest fable and lie in the west media is that you need political freedom and democracy in order to have innovation. This fable can not stand careful examination based on facts.

The first satellite, the first man in space, the first space station, and Tokamak that is still most promising technology for human to obtain unlimited fusion energy, all come from non-democratic Soviet Union.

From this fable, the west media have often concluded that India will build innovative economy and China can only build labor-intensive economy because India has democracy and China does not. However, if one carefully examine all available facts, one will find that China did far better than India in number of patent filling, number of academic paper publications, and scientific and technological achievement.

When I say this, I am by no means against democracy and political freedom. I just want to be loyal to the facts. The facts show innovation is most strongly correlated to economy, but not political freedom. Whether economy fosters innovation or innovation promotes economy is a chicken and egg problem.

Until early 1990s, the food was still rationed in China. Under this level of economy, it was unlikely that major technology invention can come from China. In last 10 years, as the ecomony developed, China made great progress in every indicator of innovation level of a society.

Originally Posted by Extra3OO

But when you must compete from the beginning with the biggest corporation on earth (china), who can use any means to force you or make a bigger factory just like yours and right next to you, it's no wonder that you have such a tiny number of "small start-ups" per person.

You have no idea about what is going on in China. The situation of China is opposite to what you say. In my view, a big problem of China is that it has too many small companies and star-ups. China currently has over 400 semiconductor chip design companies, over 100 cell phone manufacturers, over 100 motorcycle companies, etc.. Too many scattered small companies make it difficult to form a cohesive force to improve quality, launch high-end products, and build brands.