China - o noua putere mondiala

[ablium]

I have talked about the Tian An Men event many times in this thread. I don't think that I need to talk about it again. China did not handle the demonstration well. In 1989, I supported the student demonstration and I was very angry toward the government. Now I have changed my view and I have realized that if the government had not suppressed the demonstration, China would have fallen into chaos and far more people would have suffered.

Open a history book, one will find that the first time of using tanks to suppress demonstration did not happen in China but happened in the freest country - the United States of America, about a half of century before 1989. In 1932, tanks were used by the American government to suppress the demonstration of veterns who fought for America during World War I. The video for the event was not available because the technology of video had not been developed at that time, but you can read this wiki article
Bonus Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by AxA

Da mai, dar macar la noi e toata lumea de acord ca aia care-au luptat la revolutie au fost niste eroi. Si toata lumea e de acord ca_comunismul e bullshit! Cei cativa nostalgici deraiati nu se pun, ca ei ar fi nostalgici si dupa Genghis Han daca ar putea...

Who was responsible for the chaos and economic collapse in Romania in 1990s? I guess that your answer is neo-communist of Romania. My view is different. I think that any abrupt change of social system will likely introduce chaos and collapse of economy. It happened not only in Romania, but also in many other countries in the world throughout history regardless whether it was the collapse of communist system or other social systems.

[ninanina]

ablium, hai sa lasam la o parte Tien An Men, nu are rost sa deschidem din nou discutia. Eu revin la blocul din Shanghai. Nu trebuie sa reactionezi asa cand se mentioneaza un eveniment negativ din China, dezvoltarea accelerata a domeniului constructiilor duce si la erori de acest gen. Legislatia deficitara poate lasa portite pe care antreprenorii sa le foloseasca in dauna sigurantei cladirilor. Acolo nu cred ca s-au facut studii geologice serioase(si pilonii arata incredibil de subdimensionati pentru o asemenea cladire), in ciuda preturilor mari cerute: The average price of apartments in the collapsed building was 14,297 yuan (US$2,093) per square meter and 77 percent of the houses had been sold. Nu uita ce s-a intamplat cu multe cladiri noi la cutremurul de acum cativa ani din Sichuan, nu uita ce au patit si alte tari in situatii asemanatoare, Turcia a avut multe victime intr-o situatie similara, datorita nerespectarii standardelor din constructii. Si cred ca si in Romania ar fi destule probleme in cazul unui cutremur de nivelul celui din 1977.

In privinta produselor gen "chinezarii", vorba ta, e bine ca ministerul de resort se ocupa cu stabilirea unor standarde.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by AxA

Comparing China with Europe is ridiculous, even for you, ablium!

Why is China so inferior and Europe so superior that comparing China to Europe is ridiculous?

Is it the same reason as it was exhibited in this post?
http://forum.computergames.ro/39382054-post149.html

[axelg]

Because of the political system. This is obvious from AxA's post; you quoted it partially in bad faith.

I think that any abrupt change of social system will likely introduce chaos and collapse of economy.

Even if that was true, it does not mean that the change is wrong or undesirable. Think French revolution and American civil war.

[oldshooterman]

Momentan tot accesul pe Google e oprit (la chinezi), pina accepta toti comerciantii sa instaleze in PC-uri un soft pentru filtrarea anumitor informatii (chinezii sustin ca vor sa filtreze materialele pentru adulti, dar e foarte probabil sa fie mai mult de atit) DailyTech - China Blocks Google Access; Confusion Over Internet Filter Remains High

Referitor la produse, in China se fac de toate felurile, atit de slaba calitate cit si de inalta calitate. Si e vorba de inalta calitate le pret mult mai mic decit in Europa sau SUA.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by axelg

Even if that was true, it does not mean that the change is wrong or undesirable. Think French revolution and American civil war.

American revolution is one of few revolutions that have little negative effect.


French revolution is not the case. During French revoltion, the heads of King and Queen Louis XVI were chopped, together with the heads of about 40 thousands of Parisians (The population of Paris was less than one million then.). The end result was Napoleon replacing King Louis XVI as the Emperor of France and subsequent wars betwen France and other European nations.

[AxA]

Originally Posted by ablium

I have talked about the Tian An Men event many times in this thread. I don't think that I need to talk about it again. China did not handle the demonstration well. In 1989, I supported the student demonstration and I was very angry toward the government. Now I have changed my view and I have realized that if the government had not suppressed the demonstration, China would have fallen into chaos and far more people would have suffered.

Now how utterly outrageous is that?! I am not sure I can bear the conversation with someone who does believe this. It is just too much. It is possibly the worst thing you have written here since you started... I cannot believe you dare to state this! I know it is generally a free world, and you may enjoy the freedom of speech that your fellow countrymen lack so desperately, but this does not make it better. It is simply disgusting!

Open a history book, one will find that the first time of using tanks to suppress demonstration did not happen in China but happened in the freest country - the United States of America, about a half of century before 1989. In 1932, tanks were used by the American government to suppress the demonstration of veterns who fought for America during World War I. The video for the event was not available because the technology of video had not been developed at that time, but you can read this wiki article
Bonus Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this shows again how pitiful little understanding you have of these things. How the very bloody thing you do, like with the collapsed roof in Paris, is to think you can justify your horrors by telling the world there are others who do them. You are under the delusion that it makes it OK somehow. It is bad the roof collapsed in Paris, it is bad that other governments suppressed free speech with tanks. But this does not excuse China for doing so too. They so evidently taught you to act like this when writing Chinese propaganda, it is rather annoying how stupid you think we are.

Who was responsible for the chaos and economic collapse in Romania in 1990s? I guess that your answer is neo-communist of Romania.

Your guess is, surprisingly not, well, simply wrong. My belief is the people, the Romanian people, as an entity, are responsible for it.

My view is different. I think that any abrupt change of social system will likely introduce chaos and collapse of economy. It happened not only in Romania, but also in many other countries in the world throughout history regardless whether it was the collapse of communist system or other social systems.

Your view is that you would rather have brainwashed Chinese people working their lives out for the supreme commander. Your view is that economical growth can excuse murder. Your view is sickening.


Fortunately, the world economy has come to a breakpoint, where most surely the rapidly "enriched" countries would be the worst hit, and the Chinese people may realise the illusion they lived for decades.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by AxA

Fortunately, the world economy has come to a breakpoint, where most surely the rapidly "enriched" countries would be the worst hit, and the Chinese people may realise the illusion they lived for decades.

Are you sure that China will be hit worst?

Read this

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chi...imbs-89-in-may

China Auto Sales Soar - WSJ.com

Surely export has been dropped
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8094464.stm

[AxA]

And this is all you have to say? Unbelievable!

You are not trained very well, are you? Well it figures, as you activate on random Romanian forums... the pros in your league post their "ideas" on much influential forums, innit?



And by the way... did I say that China will be hit worst? Most certainly not...

[ablium]

^
^

I am just a poorly trained communist propagandist and you should be proud of your eloquence. You win the debate. Felicitare! Congratulations!

Do you know what commonality between you and those dedicated communists whose one hand held Das Kapital and the other hand pointed to the cannibalism of capitalism? The answer is over-simplification of the complex human society.

I am sure you, as well as other readers of this thread, disbelieved at a first glance over what I wrote about American government using battle tanks and bayonets to suppress the demonstration of veterans who once risked their life to fight for America.

Chinese government is evil and they killed several hundreds of demonstrators. At least, I participated the protest against the Chinese government at that time. What do you think about the governments that were directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of near a half of a million of people under the name of illusory weapon of mass destruction and spreading democracy just five years ago? The atrocity included rapes and murders of young girls. Are they evil? Did you conduct a hunger-strike against the governments of the European nations that were accomplice of this war? No, you didn’t because those “damned” Muslims and “stupid” Arabs deserved to die. What is this behavior called? It is called hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by axelg

Even if that was true, it does not mean that the change is wrong or undesirable.

The change is not wrong or undesirable. Certainly, China needs to make a lot of changes, including its political system. The question is what approach is optimal for the change and how to minimize social and economic cost during the change.

[AxA]

How dare you speak of hypocrisy? When someone tells you about a bad thing in or about China, ALL you say is that the same thing may be happening, or it already happened, somewhere else, too. And you believe, or at least hope to make us think you believe, that this will somehow make it better. While in fact it has bloody nothing to do with it!

And stop making assumptions about what I did and did not do, when you have absolutely no idea about it. It makes you look even more foolish.

[bogdan george]

Nu stiu cum sa spun, dar in dialogul de deasupra, cand vorbeste AxA, mi-e drag Ablium, iar cand vorbeste Ablium, imi place de AxA.

[oldshooterman]

Problema e ca ablium cam are dreptate. Deocamdata in China se preconizeaza o crestere economica de peste 6% in ciuda crizei generalizate; chinezii lucreaza mult dar sint multumiti de faptul ca au asigurata protectia sociala, cistiga mai putin in medie decit in RO de ex. dar si produsele, serviciile si locuintele sint mai ieftine. Desi orasele sint mai dens populate decit la noi, exista mai multa securitate personala peste tot, taranii nu au frica tiganilor si a hotilor de recolte, e restrictionat accesul la materialele pentru adulti pe internet dar se pot cumpara de pe strada. Regimul autoritar e foarte util impotriva haosului si a hotiei generalizate de genul care s-a instaurat in RO si imprejurimi.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by AxA

How dare you speak of hypocrisy? When someone tells you about a bad thing in or about China, ALL you say is that the same thing may be happening, or it already happened, somewhere else, too. And you believe, or at least hope to make us think you believe, that this will somehow make it better. While in fact it has bloody nothing to do with it!

It does not provide an excuse for killing if others also kill.

But, if a murderer who has killed one thousand people reproaches the other murderer who has killed one person, it is called hypocrisy. It is even worse than hypocrisy and I just cannot find a proper word for the description of the behavior.

The West really does not have higher moral ground over China. When Chinese asked French to return the bronze scuptures that Anglo-French force looted from Chinese imperial summer resort during the Second Opium War in 1860, the French said that we will return the broze scuptures if you let Tibet go independent. What a fucking hypocrit! The bronze scuptures collected by fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent was auctioned for more than $39 millions at Paris last February.

Do robbers have right to talk about human right?

http://english.sina.com/life/2009/0223/220764.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7911566.stm

[nosferat]

Originally Posted by oldshooterman

Problema e ca ablium cam are dreptate. Deocamdata in China se preconizeaza o crestere economica de peste 6% in ciuda crizei generalizate; chinezii lucreaza mult dar sint multumiti de faptul ca au asigurata protectia sociala, cistiga mai putin in medie decit in RO de ex. dar si produsele, serviciile si locuintele sint mai ieftine. Desi orasele sint mai dens populate decit la noi, exista mai multa securitate personala peste tot, taranii nu au frica tiganilor si a hotilor de recolte, e restrictionat accesul la materialele pentru adulti pe internet dar se pot cumpara de pe strada. Regimul autoritar e foarte util impotriva haosului si a hotiei generalizate de genul care s-a instaurat in RO si imprejurimi.

Yup,in mare cam asa e treaba.Limitarea netului a fost problema mea principala.Oriunde,oricum dadeam search la multe lucruri,ma nici cum nu gaseam.Adica in Ro le gaseam pe net dar in China nu mai erau.Erau multe ocazii cand ma uitam dupa istorie,sau cautam un muzeu sau ceva,informatiile erau putine,si de obicei cele care erau,ce sa declar patriotism cat incape,laude mari...
Acuma am fost sa cumparam marfa,dar eu doream sa vad si un muzeu,o statuie,un parc...ceva diferit fata de ditamai piata futien,sau cele 10(sau mai multe) piete imense(cei care cunosc Clujul o piata din Guangzhou e cat cartierul manastur)

Informatiile erau filtrate,insa totodata cam tot ce doresti poti gasi pe strazi aia e drept.You name it,they have it.

Problema cu taranii insa e alta,eu am vazut si sate...crede-ma,seamana cu India(zonele extra sarace).Orasele sunt mega dezvoltate insa la tara parca te intorci cu 300 de ani sau mai mult.Nu tu asfalt,case din ceva chirpici sau cum se numesc alea,oamenii care dau la sapa(nu tu tractor si alte minuni)
Desigur asta nu inseamna ca toate satele sunt asa,insa am vazut eu cateva sate..parca rupte de realitate si viata moderna.

Insa e drept,in oras nu ai tu frica de tigani acolo.Saraci care cersesc sunt si acolo la greu,dar tigani,smenari d'astia,tarani de mall nu vezi tu acolo.
Sau ceva smecher sa comenteze(sa rezolve treburile)la politie?..pff ala cred ca nu mai vede ziua de maine.

La salar cei din afara stau mai bine.Adica localnicii primesc mai putin,dar daca esti din afara,primesti ceva mai mult.Chiria e mult mai mica,desigur sunt si acolo scoruri de 500 dolari/apartament,insa aia in centrul orasului,mobilat,3camere,cu mai tot ce vrei.

[Redy]

105 pagini de retorica comunista. WoW.

Ce a subliniat AxA cu rosu este chiar ridicol. Mergand dupa acelasi principiu poti merge mult mai departe pana unde are chef fiecare in a asigura ca lucrurile se intampla asa cum vrei tu. Pana la urma asta conteaza, nu ce vrea poporul, nu de dragul poporului ci ce vrea Gigel sau Costel atat timp cat sunt la putere.

Ca tot facea cineva mai sus comparatii cu Romania si ca ii ataca hotii pe strada etc. Furtul nu are legatura cu sistemul ci doar cu fiinta umana. Credeti ca nu exista abuzuri de putere in China ? lol ? De ce nu ar exista. Sa inteleg ca daca nu te fura ca in Romania e cumva mai bine. Nu am intalnit pana acum nimeni sa fie Maica Tereza si nu cred ca acei conducatorii ai unui sistem totalitar si restrictiv pot fi acei "alesi" care sa aduca miere si lapte pe pamant pentru "cetateni".

Un sistem autoritar nu generalizeaza hotia doar o centralizeaza pentru cine trebuie. Profitori gasesti oriunde, in orice sistem. Atitudinile chinezilor din timpul Olimpiadei, spre exemplu, mi s-au parut ridicole. Cum se plimbau comunistii dupa aia cu camerele de luat vedere. Cat de ridicoli au putut fi. Copii cu acte schimbate de dragul medaliior. Unde am mai intalnit asa ceva ? In Romania, stat fost comunist. Ce coincidenta. Totul facut pentru "binele statului" normal. Un stat cu adevarat glorios.

[ablium]

The main concern of Chinese government to block some internet sites is its social stability. But I think that it is a very stupid decision and unnecessary. I talked to many Chinese when I was in China. Most of them were quite satisfactory with their life. I don't think that some internet sites can destabilize the society.

Nosferat has been to China and has visited many places in China. His description of China is quite accurate.

Originally Posted by nosferat

Acuma am fost sa cumparam marfa,dar eu doream sa vad si un muzeu,o statuie,un parc...ceva diferit fata de ditamai piata futien,sau cele 10(sau mai multe) piete imense(cei care cunosc Clujul o piata din Guangzhou e cat cartierul manastur)

I lived in Cluj for nine months, where I learned limba romana. I was quite impressed with buildings in cartierul manastur at that time. I still keep many photos of that area.

Originally Posted by nosferat

Erau multe ocazii cand ma uitam dupa istorie,sau cautam un muzeu sau ceva,informatiile erau putine,si de obicei cele care erau,ce sa declar patriotism cat incape,laude mari...

I think that there should be a lot information available for tourism. There are many specialized internet web sites dedicated for tourism. Maybe mostly are writen in Chinese language. For non-political content web sites, China is as good as the US. I found several Chinese websites specialized for particular fields of business that were even bettter than similar websites in US.

This is a good site for the guides of Museums.

China Museum - official guide of 60+ China museums

[oldshooterman]

Originally Posted by Redy

105 pagini de retorica comunista. WoW.

Ce a subliniat AxA cu rosu este chiar ridicol. Mergand dupa acelasi principiu poti merge mult mai departe pana unde are chef fiecare in a asigura ca lucrurile se intampla asa cum vrei tu. Pana la urma asta conteaza, nu ce vrea poporul, nu de dragul poporului ci ce vrea Gigel sau Costel atat timp cat sunt la putere... Totul facut pentru "binele statului" normal. Un stat cu adevarat glorios.

Vorbesti si tu ca sa te afli in treaba despre "ce vrea poporul"...In Romania se intimpla "ce vrea poporul"? Adica poporul vrea ca adunatura aia de hoti (actuala clasa politica) sa fure tot ce misca in tara asta? Hotia la nivel inalt intr-un stat cu sistem centralizat e mult mai "echilibrata" fata de ce se intimpla acum la noi. Si in RO situatia a fost total diferita din acesst punct de vedere, altele au fost problemele...Ca sa nu lungim povestea, viata in China dpdv al omului de rind nu difera de cea din RO, referitor la constringeri. Poti sa lucrezi ce vrei, ca singur intreprinzator, ca angajat la privat sau la stat, nu intereseaza pe nimeni. Doar ca sistemul de protectie sociala e mai apropiat de cel care a fost si la noi, respectiv in favoarea cetateanului cu posibilitati reduse. Sint si acolo reguli si legi, dar care se respecta mai strict si cui nu-i convine poate sa plece. In plus, sint legi care protejeaza "avutia nationala" si limiteaza accesul speculatorilor straini in anumite sectoare ale pietei (de ex. cea imobiliara) ceea ce mentine preturile la un nivel accesibil pentru cetatenii proprii (ceea ce nu e rau de loc). Este o vorba care zice ca, ciinele moare de drum lung si prostul de grija altuia...

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Originally Posted by oldshooterman

ceea ce mentine preturile la un nivel accesibil pentru cetatenii proprii (ceea ce nu e rau de loc).

Personal mă îndoiesc foarte puternic de afirmaţia de mai sus ...

[oldshooterman]

O sa ramii indoit, pina te documentezi.