China - o noua putere mondiala

[low_level_superhero]

Originally Posted by FirstUser

1. mana de lucru calificata si in primul rand ieftina. De ce oare nu se imbulzesc marile companii occidenatale si la noi ca slava Domnului nu ducem lipsa de politica pluripartita, democratie samd ?

Tu crezi ca de asta nu vin, pt. ca e mana de lucru scumpa si necalificata?

In primul rand, acum nu mai vine nimeni sa produca ciment in Romania pentru ca e prea scump sa atingi standardele UE in ceea ce priveste poluarea. In al doilea rand, daca vorbim de productie non-poluanta, cum ar fi textile, imbracaminte, etc., crede-ma, nu ai vrea sa lucrezi intr-un sweat-shop. Si iti mai raman serviciile. Iar din astea o sa avem Doamne ajuta mai multe decat putem duce.

De ce nu au venit aceste companii in "90? Tocmai datorita sistemului: politica fiscala modificata de 2 ori pe an, instabilitate politica si armata. FFS, am avut micul nostru razboi civil...

Nu, companiile nu vor pluripatidism, ci stabilitate, trasnparenta si mai ales previzibilitate.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by low_level_superhero

Nu, companiile nu vor pluripatidism, ci stabilitate, trasnparenta si mai ales previzibilitate.

This is absolutely true. If I may add more, they don't care about democracy and they hate labor unions.

[FirstUser]

Dap, raportat la China mana de lucru romaneasca e scumpa si in unele cazuri si mai slab calificata.

Nu vreau sa lucreaz intr-un sweat-shop, dar chinezul o face si o face si pe bani putini pe deasupra.

Eu intreb de ce nu au venit aceste companii in 2000 nu in 90 ? Nu cred ca se mai punea problema de instabilitate politica si armata, iar "micul razboi" se terminase de mult.

Corect, asta am spus si eu, iar stabilitate si previzibilitate ca in comunism nu gasesti in nici un alt sistem.

[low_level_superhero]

Originally Posted by FirstUser

Corect, asta am spus si eu, iar stabilitate si previzibilitate ca in comunism nu gasesti in nici un alt sistem.

Din punct de vedere istoric, comunismul a fost cel mai putin longeviv sistem. Nu confunda piata pe care activeaza cu legislatia. Stabilitate nu inseamna ca cineva (statul) iti garanteaza pretul actiunii, ci ca iti garanteaza dreptul de proprietate, o anumita taxare, o anumita conduita. Ex de stabilitate comunista: francezi au nationalizat 36 de banci in 81. Asta e orice, numai stabilitate nu. Ai stabilitate cand sistemul se bazeaza pe un set de legi, pe sistem insusi, nu pe 10-20 de persoane, cum se intampla in comunism.

PS: in 2000 numai stabilitate nu era. Toate legile se schimbau ca ciorapii.

Ablium, not even the workers like the union. That is how you spell a real menace to society.

I do not know about democracy. It has a lot to do with intrinsic motivating factors and needs. You do need content people to work for you. I do feel it is easier to work with rested and care free people. It is another topic anyways.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by FirstUser

Eu intreb de ce nu au venit aceste companii in 2000 nu in 90 ? Nu cred ca se mai punea problema de instabilitate politica si armata, iar "micul razboi" se terminase de mult.

Romania’s political system and economy has now been stabilized. The next thing to do is to build a good investment infrastructure including, well-planed industrial park, good transportation and communication system, well-trained and hard-working labor force that can speak fluent English (make English as second official language of Romania like in some Scandinavian countries. I know some readers of this thread might oppose this idea, but that is the way to become competitive in globalization era.), efficient banking system, efficient government for decision making, and most importantly, a competent government agency specially dedicated for attracting foreign investment, etc.

[FirstUser]

Nu cunosc detaliile contractuale si nici ce garantii ofera guvernul chinez investitorilor straini (garantii economice nu politice) dar sunt convis ca acele companii au luat in considerare si aspectul politic, iar sistemul comunist chinez consider ca depasit perioada framantarilor politice si sociale, perioada revolutiei culturale brutale. Si cine stie, poate ca profitul pe o perioada scurta (3-5 ani) acopera riscurile unei eventuale etatizari, nationalizari etc.

Cand am spus comunism ma refeream la "sistemul comunist chinez", mea culpa.

LE De acord cu tine Ablium, dar indeplinea (sau indeplineste) China aceste conditii ? Eu zic ca nu si cu toate acestea, de unde acest boom economic ? Raspunsul meu, la aceasta intrebare, se regaseste in mana de lucru ieftina coroborata cu celelalte aspecte enuntate intr-un post anterior.

Un citat dintr-un ziar:

În mai multe publicaţii de la noi a făcut ceva vâlvă cazul unei societăţi din Bacău ce a solicitat AJOFM acordul pentru aducerea unui număr de 1000 de muncitoare chineze fiindcă nu mai reuşea să găsească angajate. Salariul mediu oferit unei angajate române era de şapte milioane de lei, în vreme ce chinezoaicele s-ar mulţumi cu numai trei.
Chinezoaice la Bacău

Bacăul va fi "invadat" de o mie de muncitoare chineze, chiar dacă în judeţ sunt peste 5.500 de femei şomere. Asiaticele, specializate în confecţii, sunt dispuse să muncească pe bani puţini şi au calificare superioară băcăuancelor.
"Invadatoarele" vor primi salariul minim pe economie, adică 3,3 milioane de lei pe lună, ceea ce înseamnă de opt ori mai mult decât primeau în China. Româncele luau 7 milioane de lei lunar. Agenţia Judeţeană de Ocupare a Forţei de Muncă a primit cererea de angajare a chinezoaicelor din partea Sonoma SA, o firmă din Bacău cu capital italian, specializată în confecţii. Pentru a putea lucra în România, chinezoaicele vor avea nevoie de permise de la Oficiul pentru Migraţia Forţei de Muncă. În toată ţara, anul acesta, vor fi eliberate doar 10.000 de permise. Până acum, aceste permise erau solicitate mai ales pentru managerii străini care conduc firme în România sau lucrează în birourile locale ale companiilor multinaţionale. Firma băcăuană a stabilit deja locul de cazare al chinezoaicelor. În acest scop, se lucrează chiar la amenajarea unor dormitoare în incinta unei foste hale dezafectate în urmă cu doi ani, aflată tot în proprietatea Sonoma SA.
Sosirea mâinii de lucru asiatice, în premieră se pare nu numai în Bacău, ci şi la nivelul României, a fost motivată de Octavian Ţicău, directorul AJOFM, prin "penuria de forţă de muncă calificată într-un domeniu ce include în Bacău peste 70 de firme, dar şi o lipsă de apetenţă a localnicelor de a mai lucra în industria confecţiilor. Se ştie că, în prezent, nu se plăteşte foarte bine, şi atunci oamenii nu mai sunt atraşi către această industrie", recunosc surse din cadrul Sonoma SA, precizând însă că "afacerea va reprezenta un lucru avantajos atât pentru angajator, cât şi pentru asiatice". Patronii din industria textilă preferă chinezoaicele, cunoscute ca fiind rezistente la efort, precise şi răbdătoare, în comparaţie cu europencele. Calitatea cea mare o reprezintă însă pretenţiile salariale extrem de modeste. Nivelul mediu de salarizare în industria confecţiilor din China este de 15 dolari lunar.

[ablium]

Nivelul mediu de salarizare în industria confecţiilor din China este de 15 dolari lunar.

This is completely nonsense.

[FirstUser]

Posibil daca ai date mai sigure ne poti spune care ar fi cel real ?

[ablium]

This links shows the minimum salary in Guangdong province.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...ent_639786.htm

Guangdong province is one of most developed province in China. The least developed province has income about a half of Guangdong province.



Average income per capita in largest 36 cities
http://www.china.org.cn/e-company/06...page060614.htm

The average salary according to the data is $300/month (2383 RMB/month) for these 36 cities. Per capita monthly income is $156 (1131RMB)/month. Other cities should have lower salaries than this number.

[ladyatrix]

ablium, asa de curiozitate, imi poti spune numele si destinul persoanei din fata tancurilor? nu prea poti, nu-i asa? asta pt ca in continuare ce s-a intamplat in tienanmen square e tabu pt guvernul chinez, s-au scos pana si linkurile din motoarele de cautare.
m-am intrebat adesea de ce majoritatea diasporei chineze e profund neinteresata (ba chiar impotriva) democratizarii chinei, pana cand am citit ca diaspora chineza a fost prima care a investit in china (in anii 80) dupa deschidere. evident ca nu le trebuie miscari democratice in china, sindicate puternice, ziua de lucru de 8 ore, etc. ei stau in tari democratice si banii le vin din china. trai nineaca....
aici
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/...y_Research.pdf
zice ca salariul in manufacturing in 2002 a fost de 110 dolari (zic ei mai multe chestii interesante in studiul ala). de ce naiba vin chinezoiacele alea la bacau pt tot cam atatia bani nu stiu. depinde cred cat de usor e sa prinzi un loc de munca in fabrici la ei, poate sunt fete de la tara cu un curs rapid de calificare. sau poate or fi auzit ca sunt moldoveni chipesi la bacau. te pomenesti ca iese o generatie noua de bacauani cu okii mici

[ablium]

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

ablium, asa de curiozitate, imi poti spune numele si destinul persoanei din fata tancurilor? nu prea poti, nu-i asa? asta pt ca in continuare ce s-a intamplat in tienanmen square e tabu pt guvernul chinez, s-au scos pana si linkurile din motoarele de cautare.

A true hero is a person with great deed but without leaving his/her name. Nobody knows who the man standing in front tank was. That is why he has my high respect. If he had had the mentality of Harry Wu, he would have taken a travel opportunity to exit China and seek political asylum (China has opened tourism to foreign countries for quite long time.). Then he would become a hero to obtain various prizes of human right in the western countries. Harry Wu is a scum not a hero. Harry Wu lives by lying and exaggerating to get fame for his own benefit.

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

m-am intrebat adesea de ce majoritatea diasporei chineze e profund neinteresata (ba chiar impotriva) democratizarii chinei, pana cand am citit ca diaspora chineza a fost prima care a investit in china (in anii 80) dupa deschidere. evident ca nu le trebuie miscari democratice in china, sindicate puternice, ziua de lucru de 8 ore, etc. ei stau in tari democratice si banii le vin din china. trai nineaca....

There were quite strong organizations of democracy movement among diaspora Chinese during 1980s. I personally even donated some money to support the organizations. In 1989, I drove eight hours to Chinese Embassy in Washington DC to protest the crack down of the student movement. Almost all of the organizations for democracy have vanished now. The reason is simple – there is no market for China’s democracy movement now. China’s economy is doing great. Although they are not rich, people are focused in making money and see living standard improving day after day. Why should they have motivation to change its current social-political system?

In 2003, a friend of mine came to visit me from Shenzhen China. After I took him for a tour in Silicon Valley, he said to me that he was disappointed about America. I surprisingly asked him why. He said that his expectation of America was much better. I told him that Silicon Valley is one of the best places in America and I could not understand why he was so disappointed. One year later, I visited China eight years after my previous visit. Then I understand why he said that – the infrastructure of major cities in China are not much different from America. I visited homes of several middle class Chinese. They live in well-decorated high-rise flat with typical size of 130 – 200 meter squares. The flat has polished granite or marble floors, or floor with hard-wood imported from South America, big ceramic tiles for kitchen and bathroom. Even my one-million dollar house in Silicon Valley does not have these things. They have almost all kinds of electrical appliance that I have. Many of them have cellular phones that are better than mine. A few of them have bought cars. Then I visited Taiwan where people have much higher income than mainland Chinese and they have democracy now. I am totally disappointed of Taiwan. The cities in Taiwan are poorly planned. The island is deeply politically divided. In TV, political parties fight each other every day. Even TV stations are deeply divided along the political line. The president definitely spends much more time in political fighting than thinking how to build the country or execute plans. After the visit, it completely changed my view about democracy. I concluded myself that China’s political system is not perfect, but it is working and many people are benefiting from it. So there is no need to drastically disturb the system now.

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

aici
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/...y_Research.pdf
zice ca salariul in manufacturing in 2002 a fost de 110 dolari (zic ei mai multe chestii interesante in studiul ala). de ce naiba vin chinezoiacele alea la bacau pt tot cam atatia bani nu stiu. depinde cred cat de usor e sa prinzi un loc de munca in fabrici la ei, poate sunt fete de la tara cu un curs rapid de calificare. sau poate or fi auzit ca sunt moldoveni chipesi la bacau. te pomenesti ca iese o generatie noua de bacauani cu okii mici

I don’t know why those Chinese girls choose to work in Romania. It seems to me that it is pretty easy to find a job with salary of $100/month in China. Maybe they are from countryside and have difficulty finding job in China. Maybe there are other benefits to work in the textile factories of Romania that are not mentioned in the report. Maybe they just want to take the opportunity to see the outside world.

[RvsS]

The flat has polished granite or marble floors.[...] So there is no need to drastically disturb the system now.

Of couse there is no need to disturb the system.

Unnless one believes marble floors are not a substitute for the right to openly protest against your government and the ability to read about your history.

It's not all about the money.

[ablium]

True, life is not all about money. But life without money is a great pain.

[RvsS]

True, so is life without freedom of speech. What to do, what do to ? We'll see in 20 years I guess.

[ladyatrix]

haha, marble floor is a must. freedom is optional.
about the unknown hero in tiananmen square, i would like to be so optimist as u are, but the question about his name is linked with: was he still alive after the protest movement stopped? was he in jail? there were 300 (said chinese government ) or 3000 victims (said foreign reporters+ chinese red cross).

marble floor indeed:
http://www.mutantfrog.com/images/Chi...0china%202.jpg

and here a rare wood floor (unfortunately with a few scratches)
http://www.ifrc.org/docs/news/05/05080801/p13048.jpg

thanks to chinese censoring, is very difficult to find pictures on sensitive subjects

Beside each person's name a fingerprint is carefully placed in red ink:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...box/html/1.stm

[ablium]

All arrested leaders of 89 movement have been released and allowed to go to US.

Ladyatrix,
There is no doubt in my mind that there are hundreds of times more miserable scenes in China than any picture you can get. The rich part of China is not all of China. The poor part of China is not all of China either. What I care is whether they are making progress.

Let me help you finding the miserable pictures from China by Google search with "China Poor"
http://images.google.com/images?sour...oor&sa=N&tab=w

[ninanina]

Ablium,fie cum zici tu,dar nu mai fa apologia sistemului comunist intr-o tara cu atat de multe amintiri neplacute despre tovarasii rusi.Mie China imi pare un mare abces care candva se va sparge si atunci va fi greu pentru toata omenirea.Libertate,egalitate,fraternitate-asta nu exista intr-un regim comunist si nimic intemeiat pe minciuna nu dureaza.

[low_level_superhero]

Mai dar usor judecati voi acel sistem prin ochelarii vostrii vestici. Mai usor. Aveti sansa sa schimbati pareri cu o persoana dintr-o cu totul alta cultura si tot ce puteti face este sa ii dati in cap. Mai deschideti urechile si mai ales mintile.

[ablium]

ninanina,
Current China is not the same as "tovarasii rusi". Current China has absorbed a lot of elements from western society although it keeps one party rule, strict control on media, and prohibiting organized protest again the government. Chinese government constantly send officials to western countries to learn how western government work.

We have seen what has happened in France. A minor labor law change caused a chaos in Paris. Laughable to me.

China is a fast changing society. If what happened in France is allowed in China, how can China make its reform?

Barney,
I know not only Chinese culture well but also western culture and history well.

[cristinalps]

ablium, the problem with roumanians is that we are very close in time to our totalitary sistem, therefor very sensitive to this subject. Do not try to convince us that comunism is good, our revolution was pretty ugly (bloody too). I do not know very much about China today (nor yesterday, for that matters), but what i know is that chineese mentality is not exactly western- oriented. However, isn't freedom of speech a human right missed by your people? Because, from what i understood from your posts, you are trying to tell us that freedom of speech does not matter for them...And that, we find hard to believe...