China - o noua putere mondiala

[low_level_superhero]

No, freedome of speech is a western value. We, and only we, decided that every man needs it.

[ladyatrix]

ablium, pana una alta, mediul rural reprezinta 70% din populatia chinei, e aproape imposibil sa se mute la oras si daca reusesc intr-un final sunt privit ca si cetateni de categoria a doua. astia 70% crezi ca s-ar multumi cu conditiile de viata din silicon valley sau ar stramba si ei din nas?

sa inteleg ca unii n-au vazut chinezi decat in geamantane la pro tv?


ablium e reprezentativa pt chinezii din diaspora, nu pt china.
dar na, cum in china cybercenzura e in floare, ne simtim onorati sa o avem pe ablium pe aici.

[cristinalps]

Well, i think that Tienanmen square "incident" is proof that chineese mentality is changing...
Ladyatrix, cine a zis ca ablium este reprezentativa pentru China? Dar s-ar putea sa stie mai multe despre mentalitatea chineza decat stim eu, tu, sau oricare din cei care au postat aici... Nu te mai grabi cu concluziile

[ninanina]

Suntem culturi diferite,iar China nu a cunoscut democratia asa ca libertatea de expresie este ceva abstract.Hai sa admiram intreaga civilizatie chineza,pe care multi o ignora.Ablium,am fost fascinata de un roman-fluviu scris acum vreo 150 de ani,in care am descoperit o lume extrem de complexa si cu reguli stricte,insa dominata de coruptie.China de azi nu mi se pare mult schimbata,oamenii nu se mai inchina imparatului ci respecta regulile partidului.Ceva mai bine se traieste in marile orase dar zona rurala e aproape neschimbata.Oricum,vom vedea ce va mai fi,si drumul de o mie de li incepe tot cu primul pas.

[low_level_superhero]

ladyatrix, nu stiu cati chinezi ai vazut. Ablium nu este reprezentativa pt. nici un grup, este o persoana cu diferite experiente, diferite de ale multor oameni, diferite de ale multor chinezi, fie ei si din diaspora. Iar vrei lectii de statistica?

Cristinalps, lasa-ma sa ghicesc: in bine? sau, poate ar trebui sa spun: cu mentalitatea noastra?

[cristinalps]

lls: nu stiu ce este bine pentru o natie sau o cultura, nici a noastra ,nici a lor, dar de schimbat se schimba ceva, nu crezi? Suntem toti in continua evolutie....

[ablium]

Cristinalps,
I never said communism is good. But I believe the authoritarian government (not personal dictatorship) is needed in current China's economic development. That does not apply to Romania because Romania's situation is completely different from China. Freedom of speech is good. It does have strong negative effect sometimes and make people defocused when there are too many voices. China is a poor country that can not afford to be defocused from economic development currently. Free speech can provide a mechanism to control corruption of government. However, there are also other mechanisms can be used to effectively control the corruption when the structure of government is well designed. When China is rich enough, I will be more than happy to see free speech implemented in China.

[low_level_superhero]

Ablium, I have to disagree. Strongly. Corruptionwise. It is like I would be the thief, the policeman and the judge. Do you really think I would condemn myself?! Corruption will never disapear from any kind of government. It's impact could be different.

cristinalps: that's the spirit

[ladyatrix]

low_level_superhero, threadul este despre china, chiar m-ar interesa mai mult sa vorbesc cu chinezi care traiesc in china. ablium ridica in slavi china dar cand e vorba sa traiasca acolo, zice ca nu-i place. nu pare sa acorde prea mare valoare valorilor <umane> vestice, dar beneficiaza din plin de ele- inclusiv dreptul de elibera exprimare.
am povestit cu cativa studenti chinezi in real life, din pacate pe net nu stiu cati ar avea curajul sa spuna cu adevarat ceea ce gandesc de dincolo de great wall pt ca problema se pune cam asha
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4327067.stm
sa ne amintim de acel ziarist care e acum in inchisoare (cu ajutorul yahooului) pt ca a trimis niste mailuri dure la adresa regimului?

low_level_superhero
1. aici chiar nu era vorba de statistica
2. nu cred ca lipsa ta de argumente pe threadul despre fumat se poate numi lectie de statistica, oricum, faptul ca a trebuit sa iei o saptamana pauza se pare ca nu ti-a imbunatatit atitudinea

[ablium]

Barney:
Government itself can have many branches to constrain each other from corruption. I checked corruption index. The corruption indeces of India and some Latin America countries are higher than that of China. I don't think that free speech is the only means or most effective way to control corruption.

[ladyatrix]

right ablium, both india and latin america are countries with a very long democratic history

so, ablium, do you really think that once china economic status will be high, the comunist party will step back and say: well well, lets organise free election, we will disolve as a party?

[cristinalps]

Well, ablium, how do you control corruption when all that 4th power that is media is reduced to silence or, better said, is telling only what government wants it to say? I do not want to be devil's advocate here, but here's how i see things: China is currently organised by one of the "western" models, therefor it must function like in the west, am i wright? Controlling the media does nothing good for the society which benefits from it. Now, how do you know that what chineese government is telling the world is true? How do you know that economy in China is going up? We have nothing but the govenment's propaganda to relie on ...
This is what i was telling you earlier, lie and media control is what us, roumanians, know all so well, and are sick of it...China is a big country, is only natural to have the lowest poverty and the highest richness all in one place, no matter the system... There is no doubt in my mind that it will be a very important power on the political stage of the world (as a matter fact, with the population it has, it already is) but they chose a difficult path to get there...a model that does not represent chineese... Your people were once Mecca of trading for the western world, and they are traders by nature if i am to believe all that literature i once read You are telling me that strong authority is what your people needs, but i am asking you is comunist authority really what they need? even this cosmetised comunism that you are speaking of?

[low_level_superhero]

ladyatrix, nu ai inteles nimic: Ablium ridica in slavi evolutia si dezvoltarea Chinei. Cu alte cuvinte ridica in slavi scopul acestui drum.

Ti-ar prinde bine o mica variatie de la CNN si BBC.

Cat despre threadul celalalt, las-o cum a picat. Nici acolo nu ai inteles prea multe

Ablium, I really don't understand how can you say that when Chirac could go to jail after his term will be over, I don't see the members of the american government to be any kind of saints, the germans are going from a corruption scandal to another. And we are talking here about the exponents of western culture, free market, lack of curroption and so on.

If there is any way to prevent corruption in this system either it is not applied either is not discovered yet.

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

well well, lets organise free election, we will disolve as a party?

hhmm... that is strange: for you a free election can not have as an option a communist party? Freedome for you is the absence of the choices you find to be "bad"?

[ablium]

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

right ablium, both india and latin america are countries with a very long democratic history

so, ablium, do you really think that once china economic status will be high, the comunist party will step back and say: well well, lets organise free election, we will disolve as a party?

Why not? I have seen how China changed in last 30 years and it is not difficult for me to imagine that it could happen in the future. China is having election in village level now. They just want to move step by step while assessing the consequence of each of steps. That is probably better than the exactly copying the way of other countries with different economic development level, culture, and history.

[ladyatrix]

din nou argumente low_lovelistice: <ladyatrix, nu ai inteles nimic!>. qed. the great men dixit!
admitind ca ablium s-a referit la scop, (desi undeva a zis clar ca ceea ce o tine in state e partea materiala- deci considera restrangerea libertatilor de exprimare, credinta etc neesentiale- puteai sa citesti inainte sa dai din gura) se pare ca iata, gandirea ei (atipic orientala, atipic occidentala) se intalneste cu cea a lui machiavelli: scopul scuza mijloacele.

ps. low_level_superhero, daca asta numesti tu <lectii>, ok, gata, calmeaza-te.te pomenesti ca daca te mai inflamezi mult iar stai o saptamana pe tusa (patratelele alea colorate stau sa plezneasca).

[low_level_superhero]

vrei sa iti argumentez ca Ablium a scris tot ce a scris? Daca nu ai inteles prima oara ma indoiesc ca a doua oara vei avea mai mult succes.

Dupa cum am scris si mai sus, ai un singur punct de reper. Viziunea ta asupra lumii se restrange la ce iti doresti tu. Iti permiti cam usor sa o judeci. Oricum este curios cum propovaduiesti aici diferite libertati, cand de dragul viziunii tale esti gata sa le ingradesti altora libertati.

Lectii? Ma refeream la lectii de statistica. Prin "asta" din "daca asta numesti tu <lectii>" la ce te referi? Ti-am spus doar ca Ablium nu poate fi reprezentativa cum nici tu nu poti fi reprezentativa, cum nici eu nu pot fi reprezentativ. Ah, crede-ma, esti departe de a ma "inflama".

Nu stiu cum iti poti tu inchipui ca o natie care a tocmai a scapat din poate cea mai mare foamete din istoria omenirii se gandeste la libertati individuale si nu are ca si scop primordial avutia.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

ablium, pana una alta, mediul rural reprezinta 70% din populatia chinei, e aproape imposibil sa se mute la oras si daca reusesc intr-un final sunt privit ca si cetateni de categoria a doua. astia 70% crezi ca s-ar multumi cu conditiile de viata din silicon valley sau ar stramba si ei din nas?

sa inteleg ca unii n-au vazut chinezi decat in geamantane la pro tv?


ablium e reprezentativa pt chinezii din diaspora, nu pt china.
dar na, cum in china cybercenzura e in floare, ne simtim onorati sa o avem pe ablium pe aici.

Ladyatrix,
Everytime I criticize Chinese government for blocking some internet site in front of Chinese living in China, mostly likely they will come out to defense their government. Well, they could be brain-washed. So believe me, most Chinese don't care about democracy and politics. All they care is about a stable society and improvement of living standard.

If they don't care this value so much, why should western nations have to impose this value for them?

[ladyatrix]

ablium, to sustain that people who never lived in a democratic regime dont want it, is wrong. as i said before, they never been in the situation to freely make a choice.

low_level_superhero, cum s-a mai zis, tienanmenul e o dovada clara ca poporului chinez (sau cel putin unei parti) nu ii lipseste glanda <libertatii>. la fel xinhai revolution, cand au scapat de imparat-muritori de foame erau si atunci.
si da, sunt pt ingradirea oricarei <libertati> care aduce prejudicii individului. si nu era deloc vorba de viziunea mea, chiar lasand la o parte nenorocitul ala de studiu, sunt altele sute care sa confirme prejudiciile. si by the way, daca tot <dezgropam> mortii, spune-i si lui ablium (ca tot ne este partenera de discutie de ceva luni) cum consideri tu femeile ca fiind lipsite de logica (incepand cu mama si sora ta):PPPP.
aa, si era <te mai inflamezi> ...tu pe tine te...nu eu

[ablium]

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

ablium, pana una alta, mediul rural reprezinta 70% din populatia chinei, e aproape imposibil sa se mute la oras si daca reusesc intr-un final sunt privit ca si cetateni de categoria a doua. astia 70% crezi ca s-ar multumi cu conditiile de viata din silicon valley sau ar stramba si ei din nas?

Do you think that democracy or human right activists can solve the economic problems of rural people?

Originally Posted by ladyatrix

ablium, to sustain that people who never lived in a democratic regime dont want it, is wrong. as i said before, they never been in the situation to freely make a choice.

Romanian people did not live in democratic regime before 1989, but they strongly wanted democracy and political system change.

This is not the case for current Chinese people in my observation.

Originally Posted by cristinalps

Well, ablium, how do you control corruption when all that 4th power that is media is reduced to silence or, better said, is telling only what government wants it to say?

In current China, the media does play some role in monitoring and control corruption. It is just not completely free. As I said, when government structure is well designed with independent agencies, government itself can also be a strong instrument for control corruptions.

Originally Posted by cristinalps

China is currently organised by one of the "western" models, therefor it must function like in the west, am i wright?

China’s government is not completely like “Western”, so it does not function like “Western”. Modern Western government structure is a great invention, but it is not necessarily the only type of government system that can work for all countries with different backgrounds.

Originally Posted by cristinalps

Now, how do you know that what chineese government is telling the world is true? How do you know that economy in China is going up? We have nothing but the govenment's propaganda to relie on ...

People can see it and experience the life differences.

Originally Posted by cristinalps

i am asking you is comunist authority really what they need? even this cosmetised comunism that you are speaking of?

I don’t like communist either. Revolution to overthrow Chinese communist government is obviously not a choice and almost no Chinese people are enthusiastic to do so. People have to bet that communist government will continue to transform. The communists are also human not evil, so they should also have a sense of what is good or bad. I think that the worst part of 20th-century communist movement is that its leaders do not have term limitation so that there were so many life-time dictators in the communist countries. Chinese communists have solved this problem and do have term limitation now. At least, the communist governement did pretty good job in economic development, so there is no urgency to get rid of them.

Although western media often report China with distortion, some of western media report does play positive role in pushing the reform of Chinese communist government.

Originally Posted by low_level_superhero

Ablium, I really don't understand how can you say that when Chirac could go to jail after his term will be over, I don't see the members of the american government to be any kind of saints, the germans are going from a corruption scandal to another. And we are talking here about the exponents of western culture, free market, lack of curroption and so on.

If there is any way to prevent corruption in this system either it is not applied either is not discovered yet

Corruption reflects the greedy nature of human being. It can never be eliminated. All people can do is to contain its size.

[low_level_superhero]

ladyatrix, Tiananmen-ul nu dovedeste nimic. Este vorba de o mana de studenti care au fost furati de entuziasmul miscarii lui Gorbaciov, o mana de intelectuali nemultumiti de salariul pe care il primesc, si o mana de muncitori nemultumiti de trecerea la economia de piata, datorita somajului. In plus, daca ar fi fost reprezentativi pentru societate, nu s-ar fi oprit acolo.

Corruption reflects the greedy nature of human being. It can never be eliminated. All people can do is to contain its size.

If I may, it can never be eliminated from this system. A correction that means the world to me.