China - o noua putere mondiala - Page 41

ablium · 06-10-2007, 02:35

If you guys really want to talk politics, you have to write in English because I can not read complex sentences and uncommon vocabulary in Romanian language.

I talked about Tian-An-Men, private properties, Tibet, and Taiwan issues in my previous posts. If you are interested, go to read those posts.

As a person who lived in China, Romania, US, and visited many other Asian countries and European countries, I can tell you that the western media reporting China is often politically and culturally biased. I also believe that current Romania’s media is basically a copy of western media. That is why China’s government and people ignored those criticisms from the West and the country leaped ahead with amazing speed.

During 1980s, there is a naïve belief among people, especially youths in the communist countries, that once their countries change social system to west-like, people will have good life immediately. The demonstration in Tian An Men was partially driven by this naïve belief. This belief had obviously been proven to be wrong in Romania history of 1990s and other East European countries as well as states of former Soviet Union. Those naïve people completely ignored the fact that it requires generations of hard-working under a stable society for a backward country to catch up. Of course, political and economic system is very important for a country to develop. But sudden social and economic system change could lead to a disaster. Several Mineriads that happened in Romania during 1990s are examples. Steady and constant reform is generally a better solution. This is also the conclusion that I made after studying the Chinese and Japanese history of last two centuries.

During French revolution in late 18th century, British philosopher Edmund Burke pointed out that French Revolution would end in disaster because it was founded on abstract notions that purported to be rational but in fact ignored the complexities of human nature and society. Britain did not go through similar revolution, but it became the world most rich and powerful country in the 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflect...tion_in_France

Edmund Burke's theory also applies to the case of China too. The abstract notion such as democracy and human right purport to be rational but in fact ignore the complexities of human nature and situation of Chinese society. China did not go through communist regime change during late 1980s or early 1990s, but it constantly keeps social and economic reforming under stable government and society. The results are obvious. China was once far behind Eastern Europe in 1980s and now it seems that China has better infrastructure than Eastern Europe countries and has many vibrant cities that even westerners feel amazed.

I am not communist, but I am atheist. I believe in Karl Marx famous assertion that "Religion is opium of masses.". I believe that religion should be well controlled, otherwise religion fanatics could become harmful to a society.

valh · 06-10-2007, 08:21

Ablium,sunt "totaly dezoriented"

. De ce scrii pe forum romanesc si in acelasi timp spui ca nu intelegi subtilitatile limbii romane? Credeam ca daca te-ai hotarat sa faci pe aici propaganda ateist-marxista chineza ,ai si fundament lingvistic bine pus la punct.Nu suntem noi o superputere dar avem pretentia ca la noi in cuibar sa ne vorbim limba. Ma rog,trecem peste asta.
Multi nu realizeaza ca o superputere nu inseamna cipuri de proasta calitate pe banda,haine de prosta calitate,creioane fara mina,pixuri uscate,masini copiate,gume de sters care nu sterg,pantofi sport care se rup in magazin inainte de a fi vanduti,produse de marochinarie facute din sintetic ordinar. Daca China insumeaza un miliard si ceva de suflete nu inseamna ca este si superputere.Singurul merit al conducerii comuniste chineze este acela ca a reusit sa fie destul de smechera sa isi tina scaunul,lasand pe altii (particularii) sa ii ridice economia iar ea sa profite de asta din calitatea de lider. E usor sa guvernezi atunci cand ,pentru greseli ,faci executii pe stadioane. Sigur,nu spun ca nu este benefic,dar,era total de apreciat daca prin metode pe care Europa le adopta (total democratice) reusea sa tina in frau si sa dezvolte o societate. Acolo totul este fals,totul e tinut sub control despotic,si daca aceasta superputere lasa la liber democratia asa cum este in Europa se prabuseste intr-o clipa.Atunci cand voi vedea in China zeci de cartiere frantuzesti,germane ,americane ,etc,atunci voi zice...uite domnule,americanii au venit cu mic cu mare sa traisca in China pentru a profita de beneficiile traiului si sistemului strutocamilismilui chinez. Pana atunci insa ar trebui putina liniste din aceea parte asiatica,chinezii copiaza modelul superputerilor occidentale (asa cum copiaza tot) si nu invers. Chinezii trebuie sa realizeze ca si "Superputerea" e o marca inregistrata. Si nu se poate copia fara voia celor care au scornit-o.

ablium · 06-10-2007, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by valh

Ablium,sunt "totaly dezoriented"

. De ce scrii pe forum romanesc si in acelasi timp spui ca nu intelegi subtilitatile limbii romane? Credeam ca daca te-ai hotarat sa faci pe aici propaganda ateist-marxista chineza ,ai si fundament lingvistic bine pus la punct.Nu suntem noi o superputere dar avem pretentia ca la noi in cuibar sa ne vorbim limba. Ma rog,trecem peste asta.

"ateist-marxista" is not Chinese, but Western.

Please don't be overly sensitive about which language is used for the discussion. It is just for the purpose of better understanding you. I never had experience with German or Dutch that they felt insulted when I talked to them in English. There are repeated examples showing that getting more international is a way to success, in particular for countries with relatively smaller size.

It is fine to me if you insist on using limba romana or you can not write in English, but there is no guarantee that I can fully understand what you write.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilgheorghe

Tocmai am scapat de o asemenea "conducere luminata" care se inspirase masiv din orient. In ochii unor persoane si Ceausescu a fost un fel de semizeu. Din fericire ei reprezinta o minoritate.

I think that it is quite unwise to keep comparing current Chinese leaders with Ceausescu again and again. They are not comparable, period!

Ceausescu is personal dictator and tried to implement family dictatorship with his self-proclaimed scientist wife and sons, while current China is led by a group of technocrats.

During Ceausescu regime, travel to the west countries was almost prohibited, while Chinese are currently allowed to travel to any countries if they can get visa.

During Ceausescu regime, people can not easily change job positions and there was even strict "buletin" system that prevents people to move around within Romania, while current Chinese are basically free to change jobs and to live any part of China.

During Ceausescu regime, commodities was scarce and there were very few imported goods (American cigarette brand "Kent" was even considered as luxury product), while you can virtually find any foreign products in Chinese stores today.

During Ceausescu regime, foreign hard currency (valuta forte) was seen as big deal, while current China has to worry how to handle the excessive foreign currency reserve.
...

evilgheorghe · 06-10-2007, 13:15

"I believe that religion should be well controlled, otherwise religion fanatics could become harmful to a society."

Daca asta este modelul pe care il propui este destul de trist. Religia trebuie controlata, presa la fel, manifestatiile sportive pot si ele degenera, etc. Pana la urma totul trebuie controlat. Este ciudat ca ti-e frica de pericolul potential al unor fanatici religiosi, dar nu te temi de criminalii care inca iti conduc tara.

Cu un asemenea sistem politic China reprezinta o amenintare mondiala pentru orice om cu bun-simt. Chiar daca ar ajunge prima putere globala nu mi-as dori sa traiesc intr-un asemenea regim. Nationalismul este o mizerie in orice tara s-ar manifesta. Traiesc intr-o tara de rahat, dar macar recunosc asta. Nu este vorba de "superioritatea vestica". Ci de comportarea ca fiinte rationale si depasirea fazei de animal din noi.

ablium · 06-10-2007, 13:24

Man, even France has imposed a law to prohibit Muslim women to wear scarf in public place. Is it religion freedom or religion control?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3437133.stm

Don't tell me that China does not have any religion freedom. There is even Jewish Synagog in China, watch this video,

YouTube - Sexy Beijing: A Jew Brew

evilgheorghe · 06-10-2007, 16:30

In Franta era vorba de scolile de stat. Nu le este interzis nimic altceva. Eu subliniasem parerea ta, care mi se parea intoleranta. Nu stiu care sunt mai nou opiniile statului comunist despre religie. Daca exista libertate religioasa, libertate de exprimare si de miscare este ok. Totusi care este situatia cu manastirile tibetane?

Nu mi-ai raspuns cum pot fi anumiti conducatori oameni de treaba si ucigasi in acelasi timp. Indiferent cate performante economice ar avea criminalii raman criminali. Doar indivizii inconstienti se gandesc exclusiv la propriul stomac.

ablium · 06-10-2007, 17:15

This is Jewish American girl's video about Christmas in China and how western Christian culture has influenced China in recent years.

YouTube - Sexy Christmas

Tibet has been in Chinese territory for over 400 years since Qing dynasty. That is twice as long as the history of USA. In this American propaganda film during the World War II, it clearly mentioned the Tibet was part of China's territory.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7068446902546257813&q=China+Why+fight&total=4006&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
Now western media often depicts that China is the invader of Tibet. Of course, there is hidden interest for the west to see disintegration of China now just as Britain once did to separate Tibet from China.

evilgheorghe · 06-10-2007, 18:21

Nu discutam despre independenta Tibetului ci despre libertatea sa religioasa. De ce nu se poate reintoarce Dalai-Lama in tara?

Vad ca nu vrei sa raspunzi la anumite intrebari. Cum poti sa iei apararea unor conducatori care promoveaza crima? Cum se impaca tot acest progres economic cu lipsa de libertate si crima? Orice chinez poate sa-si paraseasca tara sau ai fost un caz special?

Nu sunt impotriva poporului chinez, dar resimt oroare fata de conducerile comuniste.

ablium · 07-10-2007, 18:04

I heard that there was a secret negotiation between Dalai-Lama and Chinese government for Dalai-Lama to return to Tibet, but apparently the deal was not made.

Yes, virtually all Chinese can leave China if they can get visa from foreign embassies in China. The problem is that their visa applications are often denied if they can not show sufficient financial capability or relatiely high social status in China. I don't want to be too cynical, but I believe that there is no true freedom if one does not have certain social-economic status no matter which country he lives.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by valh

Multi nu realizeaza ca o superputere nu inseamna cipuri de proasta calitate pe banda,haine de prosta calitate,creioane fara mina,pixuri uscate,masini copiate,gume de sters care nu sterg,pantofi sport care se rup in magazin inainte de a fi vanduti,produse de marochinarie facute din sintetic ordinar.

Este adevarat. But the reason that you don't see hgh quality Chinese products is because your pocket is not deep enough.

stradamare · 07-10-2007, 18:14

De ce toţi extratereştri de la Holiud au ochii oblici?

valh · 07-10-2007, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ablium

Este adevarat. But the reason that you don't see hgh quality Chinese products is because your pocket is not deep enough.

Ah,da ,imi amintesc de produse chinezesti de foarte buna calitate(electronice) ,parca aveau undeva si o stampila pe care scria "Made in HongKong"

Asta este,sa fii sanatoasa ,nu mai hranesc un topic despre o tara care se vrea neaparat stapanul lumii viitoare.

ablium · 07-10-2007, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by valh

Ah,da ,imi amintesc de produse chinezesti de foarte buna calitate(electronice) ,parca aveau undeva si o stampila pe care scria "Made in HongKong"

Hong Kong is just a financial (stock market) and commerce center and an important sea port, Virually no electronic products are made there now.

I work in microelectronic industry and I certainly understand world electronic industry much better than you do. Curretly 50% world cell phones and 75% world PCs, 65% electronic print circuit boards are made in China. Of course, many components in these electronic products are imported. Many of these products are sold under American and Japanese brands. If Chinese electronic product quality is poor, it almost equivalently says that the world electronic product quality is poor.

The whole reason that I am writing here is to give updated information and statistics, and to correct those outdated impressions and unfair views.

Sirius160 · 12-10-2007, 03:47

una peste alta China e o putere militara de luat in seama,dar cu cat mai multi
cu atat mai repede cad...economic stau binisor dar e mai foamete decat in Albania (cele 2 candva prietene acum cred sunt inghetate relatiile din cauza datoriilor catre China)
chiar si India e o putere militara...
Atat India si China au peste 30% din populatia planetei ,cel putin

ablium · 13-10-2007, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius160

dar e mai foamete decat in Albania

De unde stii acesta informatie?

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Meat (pork+beef+poultry) consumption per capita in 2007:
US 129 kg
EU(25) 78 kg
China 56 kg

http://www.fas.usda.gov/dlp/circular...ck&Poultry.pdf

Fish consumption per capita, data in 1997
http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/fus/...capita2000.pdf
China consumes more fish per capita than US and EU.

Following data come from the Statistics of Food and Agriculture Organization of United Nations.

Production per capita (kg) ( 2004 )

Cereals
Albania 143
China 313
Romania 1091
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/b01.pdf

Fruit and Vegitable
Albania 238
China 383
Romania 339
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/b03.pdf

Meat
Albania 22
China 56
Romania 36
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/b02.pdf

Fish
Albania 1
China 37
Romania 1
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/b09.pdf

Consumption Per Capita (2001 -2003)

Cereals
Albania 151
China 164
Romania 211
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/d03.pdf

Meat
Albania 33
China 52
Romania 54
http://www.fao.org/statistics/yearbo..._1/pdf/d06.pdf

Population Data is from CIA World Fact
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Quote:

Originally Posted by valh

. E usor sa guvernezi atunci cand ,pentru greseli ,faci executii pe stadioane.

Where did you learn that China executes criminals in stadiums?
It is really disgusting to make this kind of lies!

Erethorn · 13-10-2007, 10:50

Ablium, e dezgustator sa impusti oameni. Punct. Ca e pe stadion sau in celula sau mai stiu eu unde, e acelasi lucru. Drepturile omului in China sunt o poveste de adormit copii.

A, am uitat, nu pe stadioane ci in piata publica. Si nu-i executa ci ii masacreaza. Si nu pe criminali ci pe protestatari....

In ceea ce priveste statisticile cu consumul "per capita", esti constient(a) ca ele reprezinta o medie ? Si eu pot sa-ti fac o medie a veniturilor celor de pe strada mea... unul e avocat si doi sunt vagabonzi - pui pariu ca in medie ies toti bine ?

Electronicele de "calitate" made in China (alea pentru care n-avem noi buzunare destul de adanci):

YouTube - PSP rip off

ablium · 13-10-2007, 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

Ablium, e dezgustator sa impusti oameni. Punct.

Then you should start questioning why Romania executed Ceausescu couple and showed the execution on TV. Then you should also question why US still has death penalty and execute many people each year. I personally support death penalty for certain crimes. I believe that it is needed for a society to function and protect innocent victims although I feel sad every time that I watch TV report on death penalty execution in US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

In ceea ce priveste statisticile cu consumul "per capita", esti constient(a) ca ele reprezinta o medie ? Si eu pot sa-ti fac o medie a veniturilor celor de pe strada mea... unul e avocat si doi sunt vagabonzi - pui pariu ca in medie ies toti bine ?

This is not considered as media. The statistics is the report from United Nations Organization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

Electronicele de "calitate" made in China (alea pentru care n-avem noi buzunare destul de adanci):

I don't deny that there are many low quality electronic products or faked products made in China. But, to be fair, you also have to see that there are many good quality electronic products made in China. Just take a look on the back of your computer and see where it is made. By the way, I bought a Nintendo Wii game station a few months ago and I surprisedly found that it was made in China too.

The PSP shown on your youtube link is just a toy version of Sony PSP. It is probably sold under $20. It is similar to the case that people buy toy of min Porsche because he like but can not afford a Porsche car.

Erethorn · 13-10-2007, 12:39

Quote:

Then you should start questioning why Romania executed Ceausescu couple and showed the execution on TV. Then you should also question why US still has death penalty and execute many people each year. I personally support death penalty for certain crimes. I believe that it is needed for a society to function and protect innocent victims although I feel sad every time that I watch TV report on death penalty execution in US.

I am questioning those facts. I believe the death penalty to be just as disgusting anywhere in the world, be it China or US. On the other hand, Romania has banned the death penalty - when will China do the same ?

Oh, and you feel sad when you hear about executions in US, but not when you hear about them in China ? Do I smell a little bit of hypocrisy here ?

And would you say that the european countries, where the death penalty was abolished, do not function ? Give us a break please.... Does the chinese society function better that the french one, because it shoots people in the back of their necks ?

YouTube - Execution Buses

Quote:

This is not considered as media. The statistics is the report from United Nations Organization.

"Medie" in romanian means "average". If 10 chinese live very well and eat a lot, and 30 chinese starve, we can say that "on the average" the chinese have enough to eat.

Quote:

I don't deny that there are many low quality electronic products or faked products made in China. But, to be fair, you also have to see that there are many good quality electronic products made in China. Just take a look on the back of your computer and see where it is made. By the way, I bought a Nintendo Wii game station a few months ago and I surprisedly found that it was made in China too.

The PSP shown on your youtube link is just a toy version of Sony PSP. It is probably sold under $20. It is similar to the case that people buy toy of Porsche car because he like but can not afford a Porsche car.

My computer may be asembled in China, but is not a chinese product. Same about the Wii you bought, it is a Japanese product, it's just manufactured in China. The day the chinese will make a video game console of the same quality and success as Nintendo, pigs will fly.

The PSP (or POP) shown in my link is not a "toy version" (how stupid does "a toy version of a toy" sound ?!), it's a damn piece of piracy and trademark infringement, it's as illegal as a nine dollar bill.

ablium · 13-10-2007, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

I am questioning those facts. I believe the death penalty to be just as disgusting anywhere in the world, be it China or US. On the other hand, Romania has banned the death penalty - when will China do the same ? .

I discussed death penalty and your Youtube video (a BBC report) link in my previous post.
China - o noua putere mondiala

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

Oh, and you feel sad when you hear about executions in US, but not when you hear about them in China ? Do I smell a little bit of hypocrisy here ? .

In fact, I feel sad for the execution in China too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

And would you say that the european countries, where the death penalty was abolished, do not function ? Give us a break please.... Does the chinese society function better that the french one, because it shoots people in the back of their necks ?.

I won't involve a pro-death-penalty or anti-death-penalty debate with you because I have seen such a debate is futile in US. I also see your argument in the debate in US. I guess that it should be decided by general public opinions. By the way, Chinese government has recently tightened granting of death penalty and replaced gun shot by lethal injection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

"Medie" in romanian means "average". If 10 chinese live very well and eat a lot, and 30 chinese starve, we can say that "on the average" the chinese have enough to eat.?.

Thanks for writing in English. I miss understood you because my Romanian language is not so good. The income disparity has increased significantly in China after China adopted capitalism system. In the case of food consumption, however disparity has a limit because a person can only eat limited food no matter how rich he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

My computer may be asembled in China, but is not a chinese product. Same about the Wii you bought, it is a Japanese product, it's just manufactured in China. The day the chinese will make a video game console of the same quality and success as Nintendo, pigs will fly.

I bought a notebook computer by Lenovo in US just two months ago. I bought it not because it was made by a Chinese company but because it was the only model in the store that has 15 inch monitor with 1650X1150 resolution. Currently Lenovo is the world third largest PC company after Dell and HP.

Chinese communication equipment company Huawei started in late 1980s and had sale of 11 billions dollar in 2006. It has become a global company and a major player in the world communication equipments.
http://www.huawei.com/corporate_information.do

China is the only country that Google is not number one search engine. Chinese seach engine company Baidu is number one search website in China. It has started entering Japanese market now. Watch how its stock price flys in New York Stock Market
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=BIDU&t=1y

You might not know that currently Taiwan has more advanced semiconductor logic chip manafacturing than Japan. Taiwanese companies also control 70% of world PC manufacturing and 70% world GPS manufacturing and marketing . If 22 milion Chinese in Taiwan can make this happen, I don't see why 1.3 billion Chinese in mainland can not produce a few companies like Nintendo someday.

Yes, in my opinion, pigs will fly someday.

Erethorn · 13-10-2007, 14:24

Quote:

In the case of food consumption, however disparity has a limit because a person can only eat limited food no matter how rich he is.

Yeah, but that doesn't really help the poor guy who starves, now does it ?

Quote:

I don't see why 1.3 billion Chinese in mainland can not produce a few companies like Nintendo someday.

Yes, in my opinion, pig will fly someday.

My point exactly. "Someday".

Quote:

I won't involve a pro-death-penalty or anti-death-penalty debate with you because I have seen such a debate is futile in US.

In other words, when arguments show that your country doesn't respect human rights, you choose not to discuss because you think the debate is "futile". It's your choice, but it's also my choice to voice my opinion outloud:

CHINA KILLS PEOPLE, MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD !!!!!

Quote:

By the way, Chinese government has recently tightened death penalty and replaced gun shot by lethal injection.

CHINA HAS BECOME A MORE HUMAINE REGIME, THEY DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE ANYMORE, THEY INJECT PEOPLE WITH POISON !!!ONE11!!!

Quote:

You might not know that currently Taiwan has more advanced semiconductor logic chip manafacturing than Japan. Taiwanese companies also control 70% of world PC manufacturing and 70% world GPS manufacturing and marketing .

That's why you want to invade them ?

ablium · 13-10-2007, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

In other words, when arguments show that your country doesn't respect human rights, you choose not to discuss because you think the debate is "futile".

I will support abolishment of death penalty if I see a firm data showing that death penalty does not reduce murder and other violent crimes rate. Since such data is not available, I can only use my intuition that death penalty does have the function to reduce violent crimes.

United States suspended death penalty in 1973, but resumed in 1977.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erethorn

The day the chinese will make a video game console of the same quality and success as Nintendo, pigs will fly.

I have already seen many quite sophisticated online games in China. Several of online gaming companies are already in New York Stock Market.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SNDA&t=1y
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=SNDA