China - o noua putere mondiala

[Double Jay]

Originally Posted by Erethorn

In my opinion, school and religion should have nothing to do with each other; both religion an a study object and religious apparel should be banned from school.

On the other hand, in Europe, this is an debatable issue. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions about it. In other words, we obey the law, but we are also allowed to chalenge it, at least at the level of public speech. And if anyone feels strongly enough about it, he or she if free to lobby for the law to be changed.

That, ablium, is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. And that's what freedom of expresion means. It doesn't mean that there are no rules, it means you are allowed to challenge those rules.

In China, you can go to prison either for breaking the rule that doesn't allow you the freedom of speech, or for contesting that rule. There is no way out, unless the "wise leaders" decide, instead of you, that the rule should be changed.

And why should that be? It's my right to express my religion as it is my right to express my political or social believe. You can agree with it or not but it's my right to wear a cross, a scarf or whatever. France has showed incredible stupidity in that case (no wonder, they are in a big depth but are still spending money over budged then they brag about having the best medical system in the world )

[Erethorn]

See ablium ? Me and Double Jay have different opinions on the law in question, but the essential part is that we are allowed to voice them. And noone is asking us if we are qualified enough to voice them. And if no one listens, tough luck.

Pe de alta parte, DoubleJay , sa nu cadem in off topic cu discutii despre religie. Topicul e despre China.

[ablium]

Why is it so difficult for you guys to see things from different angles? Even some Americans can understand it.

I posted this link before and I post it again. This guy is not an ordinary fat American and he is bureau chief of Wall Street Journal in Beijing.

Youtube

Youtube

Quote:
"Watch this through the eye of China. China is holding arm to its population as tight as it can, for as long as it can, to get the country as rich as it can, before it becomes pluralistic and inefficient, and difficult to get anything done. Sometimes, they do that through brutal method to keep the country together"

"America is telling China: you must have democracy. They (Chinese) think, wait, your democracy is (that) you find an issue that divides the population, like gay marriage. And then you get the people attacking each other, and you use that to get elected. How is that going to help me?"




************************************
Listen to the dialogue at the end of this video

YouTube - Rise of China

YouTube - Rise of China

Quote:

"One of the thing that we always believed that they didn't have political freedom, so they won't have exchange of ideas and they complain about not having political freedom, but no?"

"Never heard that once. They regard their government the way we sort of regard a trip to DMV (Department of Motor Vehicle). It is bureaucratic. It is a kind of pain. But they had so much oppression for so long. After 20 years of relative stability, there is so much optimism in this country. All they really want is a better television set and a nice car, to get their kids to college, just like in America."

[ild12]

One of the thing that we always believed that they didn't have political freedom, so they won't have exchange of ideas and they complain about not having political freedom, but no?
e unul dintre elementele centrale ale intregii discutii. nu e nevoie (nici macar nu poti spune ca e bine in mod absolut) sa vrea nu stiu ce libertati (le vor dori mai tarziu, poate). daca au banale deziderate consumeriste.. e perfect pentru toata lumea, nu numai pentru china. un model de societate nou, fara anumite libertati insa cu oameni totusi multumiti. halucinant pentru cei care nu concep lumea fara "libertatea de exprimare", insa o posibila realitate a viitorului. si nici macar una prea rea. o armata disciplinata si lipsita de excese ale exprimarii, va fi probabil modelul eficientei, dupa care se vor alinia si altii, sau vor ramane in urma. poate fi asta o posibila simbioza reusita intre utopia comunista si decadenta capitalista? cine poate spune acum ca nu..?

[ablium]

Originally Posted by Erethorn

See ablium ? Me and Double Jay have different opinions on the law in question, but the essential part is that we are allowed to voice them. And noone is asking us if we are qualified enough to voice them. And if no one listens, tough luck.

That is pretty funny. You come to teach a person who has lived in "free world" for near a quarter of century and probably also knows Western system better than you.

[Erethorn]

ablium, don't bet on it.

But, if you're willing to share your age and personal history with us , be my guest.

On the other hand, I suspect that living in the free world for almost 25 years (as you claim) might have distorted your image of China and human rights thereoff.

[motorzbh]

China provided some support to the communist guerrilla in South East Asia, including Vietnam.

excuse me, but didn't China tried to invade Vietnam after the american forces left in 1975? and wasn't the same China defetead by the brave army of Vietnam Republic? i don't know what you were thinking ? if the americans failed you could prevailed ? ha, ha, ha very funny.

That is pretty funny. You come to teach a person who has lived in "free world" for near a quarter of century and probably also knows Western system better than you.

but why didn't you stayed in your beatiful country? and you know, it's rather silly to believe that you could know more about Europe than an european. but that's just me.

[Erethorn]

Ok, ce-ati zice sa ne calmam putin cu totii ?

Ablium, sper sincer sa nu te fi jignit. Nu contest realizarile Chinei. Nu am nimic cu chinezii, dimpotriva, mi-ar place sa pot vizita China intr-o zi. Marturisesc ca sunt, chiar, putin invidios pe China, mai ales daca o privesc prin prisma Romaniei, in care lucrurile se misca inspre bine cu viteza melcului turbat.

Dar. Traim in Romania, care are o experienta first hand in privinta comunismului si a suprimarii drepturilor omului. Printre noi sunt oameni care au avut rude arestate, inchise, deportate pentru vina de a fi vorbit impotriva partidului. In conditiile acestea, remarci de genul "nu e treaba taranilor sa faca politica" lovesc, in unii dintre noi, puncte foarte sensibile.

In plus, nu cred in miracole. Mi-ar place sa cred, dar nu pot. sunt convins ca pentru asa zisele "miracole" se plateste intotdeauna un pret, cu atat mai mare cu cat e mai mare miracolul. Sper doar ca in cazul Chinei pretul platit sa merite si sa fi fost platit de bunavoie de catre acel miliard de oameni.

[ablium]

Originally Posted by motorzbh

excuse me, but didn't China tried to invade Vietnam after the american forces left in 1975? and wasn't the same China defetead by the brave army of Vietnam Republic? i don't know what you were thinking ? if the americans failed you could prevailed ? ha, ha, ha very funny. .

Both China and Soviet Union supported Vietnam politically and materially in fighting America. I heard that China provided 20 billion yuan of material support (It was quite a lot of money at that time.) I don't know what exact reason that Vietnam later broke up with China and allied only with Soviet Union. After US withdrew, Vietnam allowed Soviet Union to build navy base in Vietnam. China was quite upset and felt betrayed.

After Vietnam invaded Cambodia, China got quite worried. The purpose of Chinese brief border invasion was different from that of American. It was to exert pressure to force Vietnam to withdraw from Cambodia.

Please don't use word "you", I just represent myself and I don't represent China.

Originally Posted by motorzbh

but why didn't you stayed in your beatiful country? and you know, it's rather silly to believe that you could know more about Europe than an european. but that's just me.

After I left Romania, I went to US to pursue my graduate education. After graduation, I was offered a job with good pay and considering the living standard in China at that time, I decided to stay in US.

Although I read quite a lot of European history and know something about current Europe, have I ever said that I know more about Europe than an European?
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Originally Posted by Erethorn

In plus, nu cred in miracole. Mi-ar place sa cred, dar nu pot. sunt convins ca pentru asa zisele "miracole" se plateste intotdeauna un pret, cu atat mai mare cu cat e mai mare miracolul. Sper doar ca in cazul Chinei pretul platit sa merite si sa fi fost platit de bunavoie de catre acel miliard de oameni.

Be realistic! Is there any achievement that can be acquired without price and sacrifice? Of course, how big the price is depends on the value system of the person who weighs it.

[Erethorn]

Be realistic! Is there any achievement that can be acquired without price and sacrifice? Of course, how big the price is depends on the value system of the person who weighs it.

Tocmai asta spuneam si eu. Si, cu cat e mai mare realizarea, cu atat mai mare e pretul. Iar daca realizarea e atat de mare incat sa poata fi numita "miracol", inseamna ca si pretul trebuie sa fie urias. Eu ma intrebam doar care a fost, sau este, pretul platit de chinezi.

[ablium]

Why is DKP banned?

[Erethorn]

Infraction for KDP: Atac la persoană

and

Infraction for KDP: Atac la persoană

[siccogito]

Originally Posted by ablium

"America is telling China: you must have democracy. They (Chinese) think, wait, your democracy is (that) you find an issue that divides the population, like gay marriage. And then you get the people attacking each other, and you use that to get elected. How is that going to help me?"

Ha, ha, ha! It is so dam' funny, as it reminds me about old times when Soviet Union was telling Romania (and not only): you must have communism. They (Romanians, and not only) thought: Wait! Your communism is (that) you find an issue that divides the classes. And then, you get the comrades attacking each other's liberty and human rights, and you use that to be lifelong elected. China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela should ask themselves: How is that going to help me?

[DAZE]

In legatura cu ban-ul lui KDP de catre first citizen Lynette un citat alegoric:

Originally Posted by KDP

In China, you criticize the government. You go to Jail. People become aware of your thoughts and ideas. You become a symbol and given enough time and people resonating with your ideas things might change.

Am o vaga impresie ca ban-ul a fost dat cu o oarecare parere de rau si ca multe din lucrurile de calitate spuse de KDP au avut ecouri in straturile superioare. Intr-adevar insa era cam greu sa scape fara ban pentru ca a cam exagerat cu flame-urile.

Cred ca ar fi trebuit sa reflecte mai mult la expresia: Cunoaste-i inainte sa ii judeci!

[ablium]

Originally Posted by DAZE

Cunoaste-i inainte sa ii judeci!

Fully agreed!

I feel deeply sorry that KDP is banned. Although some of his views are somewhat radical, many of them are valid and profound and can not be found from "conventional wisdom".
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China's steel output to approach 1 billion tons a year by 2015.
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...fx4282200.html

The world production of steel in year 2003 is about 1 billion tons.

Estimated steel production per capita in 2007

EU: 436 kg
Russia: 520 kg
US: 324 kg
China: 370 kg
Japan: 936 kg
India: 40 kg

http://www.steelonthenet.com/ISSB/Review-09-07.pdf

[DAZE]

ablium, KDP was not banned because of his profound and valid views but because of his "other" views. Those affirmations that while not as profound, can be equally valid

[darkraver]

BEIJING/SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China's worst fuel crisis in two years spread to the capital and other inland areas by Wednesday, and one man was killed in a brawl at a petrol station queue, upping pressure on the government to intervene.

Diesel shortages in China's political heart, which escaped previous supply crunches unscathed, highlight tensions between the government and its increasingly independent oil firms about who should pay for the country's generous fuel subsidies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071031/...BrM96hdAGAsnsA

[ablium]

Pictures by a Romanian tourist and his impression about China
http://forum.softpedia.com/index.php...=138165&st=120

[ladyatrix]

alt exemplu de propaganda vestica murdara tztztz:
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1697.html


Ablium, cu cateva pagini in urma <ne aratai> noua cat de murdar si urat e bucurestiul....ti se pare ca e cineva pe aici care sustine ca e un oras minunat, asa cum faci tu despre gigantii poluanti din china?

[ablium]

^
China's suicide rate is considered moderate in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate

You are so foolish to assume that I have intention to attack Romania. The words "Romania" and "Bucharest" appear on my resume. I only have reason to wish Romania the best.