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Thread: De ce tancurile sovietice au ocolit Romania?

  1. #1
    Registered User Masi27185's Avatar
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    De ce tancurile sovietice au ocolit Romania?

    Precum se stie, in 1968 tancurile sovietice, impreuna cu toate tarile din Pactul de la Varsovia au invadat Cehoslovacia pentru a inabusi revolta anti-comunista. Singura exceptie a fost Romania, deoarece Ceausescu credea in dreptul de auto-determinare a fiecarei tari suverane.

    Soldatii rusi, la vremea aceea, nu erau siguri ca Cehoslovacia va fi invadata, dar nu aveau dubii referitor la atacarea Romaniei pentru obraznicia ei. De fapt, majoritatea lumii credea ca URSS va invada Romania pentru masuri punitive.

    Soldatii rusi erau siguri si abia asteptau sa invadeze Romania :
    The liberation of Romania would be a joy-ride. Her maize fields suited
    our tanks admirably. Czechoslovakia was another matter. Forests and mountain
    passes are not good terrain for tanks.
    The Romanian army had always been the weakest in Eastern Europe and had
    the oldest equipment. But in Czechoslovakia things would be more
    complicated. In 1968 her army was the strongest in Eastern Europe. Romania
    had not even a theoretical hope of help from the West, for it had no common
    frontier with the countries of NATO. But in Czechoslovakia, in addition to
    Czech tank divisions, we risked meeting American, West German, British,
    Belgian, Dutch and possibly French divisions. A world war might break out in
    Czechoslovakia but there was no such risk in Romania.
    So, although preparations were being made for the liberation of
    Romania, we clearly would not go into Czechoslovakia. The risk was too
    great....
    Soldatii rusi au fost trimisi insa in Cehoslovacia, insa ei credeau ca vor fi trimisi in Romania dupa Cehoslovacia. De altfel, motive aveau :
    Elementary logic suggested that it was essential to liberate Romania and to do so immediately. The reasons for acting with lightning speed were entirely convincing. Ceaucescu had denounced our valiant performance in Czechoslovakia as aggression. Then Romania announced that henceforth no exercises by Warsaw Pact countries might be held on her territory. Next she declared that she was a neutral country and that in the event of a war in Europe she would decide for herself whether to enter the war or not and if so on which side. After this she vetoed a proposal for the construction of a railway line which was to have crossed her territory in order to link the Soviet Union and Bulgaria. Each year, too, Romania would reject suggestions by the Soviet Union that she should increase her involvement in the activities of the Warsaw Treaty Organisation.Then there was a truly scandalous occurrence.
    Soviet military intelligence reported that Israel was in great need of spare parts for Soviet-built tanks, which had been captured in Sinai, and that Romania was secretly supplying these spare parts. Hearing of this, the commander of our regiment, without waiting for instructions, ordered that a start should be
    made with bringing equipment out of mothballing. He assumed that the last hour had struck for the stubborn Romanians. It turned out to be his last hour that had come. He was rapidly relieved of his command, the equipment was put back in storage and the regiment fell back into a deep sleep.
    Things became even worse. The Romanians bought some military helicopters from France. These were of great interest to Soviet military intelligence, but our Romanian allies would not allow our experts to examine them, even from a distance.
    Se poate spune ca rusii aveau motive destule pentru a invada Romania. Dar nu, nu au facut-o.

    We had got used to the idea that Romania was allowed to do anything that she liked,
    that she could take any liberties she pleased. The Romanians could exchange
    embraces with our arch-enemies the Chinese, they could hold their own
    opinions and they could make open criticisms of our own beloved leadership.
    We began to wonder why the slightest piece of disobedience or evidence
    of free thinking was crushed with tanks in East Germany, in Czechoslovakia,
    in Hungary or inside the Soviet Union itself, but not in Romania. Why was
    the Soviet Union ready to risk annihilation in a nuclear holocaust in order
    to save far-off Cuba but not prepared to try to keep Romania under control?
    Why, although they had given assurances of their loyalty to the Warsaw
    Treaty, were the Czech leaders immediately dismissed, while the rulers of
    Romania were allowed to shed their yoke without complications of any sort?
    What made Romania an exception? Why was she forgiven for everything?
    Multe teorii au circulat, inclusiv una care sustinea ca Romania se afla in posesia unui laser puternic, care a topit un tanc sovietic la granita, rusii retragandu-se dupa aceea.

    Alta, mai plauzibila, se refera la diferentele intre Romania si Cehoslovacia.

    Romania, ca si Ungaria si Cehoslovacia, erau adversare URSS, prin rebeliunile lor. Insa in Cehoslovacia si Ungaria demonstratiile tindeau spre libertate, spre eliberare de comunism, si deveneau un pericol pentru rusi, numai si prin exemplu. O mentalitate de eliberare putea sa apara si in URSS.

    Romania insa era tot un regim comunist, totalitar, cu inchisori politice si fara libertate. Nu reprezenta un pericol pentru Rusia. Nu oferea un exemplu anti-comunist si nici nu era un loc unde rusul de rand ar fi dorit sa emigreze.

    Sincer, eu nu am o vasta cunoastere a istoriei Razboiului Rece, asa ca as aprecia si teoriile, parerile sau ceea ce stiti voi despre acest incident.

    De ce Romania nu a fost atacata de rusi?

    Multam pentru atentie.
    Masi, magniloquent warthog
    E-mail : masi27185@yahoo.com
    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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  2. #2
    Registered User PigBrother's Avatar
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    DHB14 - 300 - Thread
    Era o epoca dubioasa, asa ca nu prea pun baza pe ce stiu sau stie altul. Aia cu laserul e buna pt. Vadim, nu pentru noi.
    Am intzeles ca in virtutea prieteniei solide romano-chineze am scapat. Adica s-au uitat aia putin crucis. Nu e prima data cand se rezolva o chestie prin incordarea muschilor amicului mai mare.
    If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he's not doing the same thing

  3. #3
    Banned Schatten's Avatar
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    Corect, nimeni de la noi nu cred ca stie cu adevarat motivele pt care Romania a fost o vreme cea mai "libera" tara din blocul comunist. Da, poate pentru faptul ca rusii stiau ca nu este o amenintare reala....acesta fiind adevarul.

  4. #4
    Registered User Harald Hårfager's Avatar
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    Nu sunt de acord cu spusele respectivului soldat sovietic.
    1. Armata romana nu a fost niciodata, nici in anii 60, cea mai slaba din Europa de Est, ba chiar era mult mai numeroasa si mai bine dotata decat cea ceha, care nu a fost niciodata cea mai puternica din Europa de Est (Polonia si Romania cel putin statau mai bine).
    2. Vestului i-ar fi fost in orice moment mai usor sa lanseze o contraofensiva in Romania decat in Cehoslovacia. Iesirea la mare, combinata cu stapanirea stramtorilor de catre tari aliate ale vestului, distanta mai scurta pentru eventuale operatiuni aeropurtate (din Italia pe deasupra Yugoslaviei lui Tito, stat ostil lui Brezhnev), precum si posibilitatea de a lansa o ofensiva din Grecia faceau ca Romania sa fie un teren de confruntare mult mai propicdecat Cehoslovacia, in care se putea ajunge trecand pe teritoriul mult mai bine fortificat al RDG sau doar printr-o granita destul de mica printr-o Austrie neutra.


    Probabil ca motivul este faptul ca rusii aveau destui oameni infiltrati in guvernul de la Bucuresti pentru a fi asigurati ca Ceausescu nu este un pericol real pentru URSS, si mai ales ca nu este un aliat viabil pentru inamicii URSS. Prietenia cu China probabil ca a contribuit si ea la a tempera pe unii radicali rusi. In cele din urma, cred ca raspunsul este destul ed simplu. Rusii nu au invadat Romania pentru simplul motiv ca nu era nevoie. La fel cum nu au invadat nici Bulgaria.
    That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem or to be, when it suits him, a coward.

  5. #5
    Registered User The Red Guy's Avatar
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    Din cate am auzit eu, rivalitatea de la acea vreme dintre China/URSS si prietenia noastra cu chinezii au jucat un rol important.
    I'm sorry but i didn't know that buttwalking is a crime.

  6. #6
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    Nu sunt de acord cu teoria cf careia rusii n-au invadat Romania datorita armatei romane. Sa nu uitam ca ne referim la armata URSS: experienta mai mare, dar mai ales superioritate numerica.

    Probabil ca Romania n-a fost invadata pentru ca nu a fost niciodata o amenintare pentru URSS. Era inconjurata numai de state din blocul comunist, nu avea o armata puternica, nu era apropiata de tarile NATO (normal). Singurul avantaj al lui Ceausescu era prietenia cu China.
    Romania se conforma in totalitate "cerintelor" comuniste (daca-mi scuzati limbajul): regim totalitar, lipsa libertatii, etc. In afara de evenimentele mentionate Ceausescu nu s-a impotrivit URSS (s-ar putea sa ma insel) si in legatura cu ofensiva vestului, aceasta nu cred ca a fost vreodata o optiune NATO. E adevarat ca Romania avea o pozitie strategica (iesire la Marea Neagra, Dunare, etc), insa pentru a ajunge in Romania, trebuiau traversate alte tari comuniste. O operatiune aeropurtata era o solutie mult prea complicata si costisitoare pentru acea vreme.
    In final, o ofensiva asupra tarilor comuniste (cu sau fara participarea Romaniei) era greu de pus in practica deoarece aporoape sigur ar fi dus la un razboi nuclear, ultimul lucru dorit de NATO.

    PS: am cam deviat de la subiect spre sfarsit, sorry...

  7. #7
    Registered User Harald Hårfager's Avatar
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    Nu am spus ca URSS nu a invadat Romania datorita armatei romane, am spus numai ca premisele de la care porneste Suvorov sunt gresite.

    Evident ca in cazul unei invazii rusii nu ar fi intalnit probleme mari, dar eventualele probleme ar fi fost probabil mai semnificative ca in Cehoslovacia, din punct de vedere militar.
    That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem or to be, when it suits him, a coward.

  8. #8
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    Nu se batea nimeni pentru Romania sa fim seriosi. In plus era si o kestie de imagine si orgoliu sa ataci statele "prietene".
    .... vremurile sunt aproape...

  9. #9
    Registered User Rezare's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Harald Hårfager
    Nu am spus ca URSS nu a invadat Romania datorita armatei romane, am spus numai ca premisele de la care porneste Suvorov sunt gresite.

    Evident ca in cazul unei invazii rusii nu ar fi intalnit probleme mari, dar eventualele probleme ar fi fost probabil mai semnificative ca in Cehoslovacia, din punct de vedere militar.
    De ce sa nu intampine probleme? Multi altii au facut-o.Sa stii ca atunci cand intri intr-o invazie nu conteaza neaparat rezultatul final, ci si cum il obtii.Daca pierzi 2/3 din armata ca sa invadezi o tara de 1mp nu cred ca te avantajeaza (doar exemplu).
    The Power of Dreams - Honda.

  10. #10
    Registered User Harald Hårfager's Avatar
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    Ar fi intampinat probleme mai amri ca in cehoslovacia, dar nu de natura sa ii opreasca. Nu se pune problema de a pierde 2/3 din armata.
    Cat crezi ca ar fi rezistat romanii ? Eu sunt convins ca depuneau armele in cel mult 48 de ore. Imagineaza-ti putin un conflict armat URSS-Romania in 1968. Cat crezi ca ar fi durat ?
    That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem or to be, when it suits him, a coward.

  11. #11
    Registered User buggy_ro's Avatar
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    Din cate stiu eu rusii au fost foarte aproape sa faca un "mars fortat" prin Romania. La noi in aceea perioada armata intrase in stare de alerta (bunicul meu a lucrat in armata si in perioada aia l-a chemat inapoi din concediu), dar dintr-un motiv necunoscut de mine nu ne-au invadat.
    Eu cred ca pentru ca stiau ca Ceausescu nu era un pericol real, Romania fiind impanzita la aceea vreme de spioni sovietici, ei stiau destul de bine care era situatia la noi in tara.
    Chestia cu contraofensiva lansata de NATO, este o prostie, la aceea vreme NATO n-ar fi riscat un razboi cu URSS, dupa anii '80 asta-i alta poveste, dar daca sunteti atenti nici acuma, NATO nu-si permite sa nu-i ia in considerare pe rusi.
    There is no substitute for succes

  12. #12
    Registered User Harald Hårfager's Avatar
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    Rusia s-a transformat din "Imperiul Raului" in cel mai pretios aliat...

    Desigur ca NATO nu ar fi riscat un razboi pentru Romania, dar nici pentru Cehoslovacia, asa cum sugereaza respectivul soldat.
    That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem or to be, when it suits him, a coward.

  13. #13
    zmrtx
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    Aia cu "contraofensiva vestului" e buna de "copiii spun lucruri traznite".Relatiile Romaniei cu China au fost,probabil ,decisive,dar au mai contat si considerente de imagine (invadarea a doua tari "fratesti" era deja cam mult).

  14. #14
    Registered User Masi27185's Avatar
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    SUBJECT
    Contingency Planning on Romania

    EUR is giving consideration to the following possible lines of action, on a contingency basis, in the event of Soviet invasion of Romania:

    1. Increase in NATO vigilance measures bringing them to the visible level.

    2. Return to Europe of United States air and ground forces currently being returned under "reforger" and "crested cap".

    3. Reinforcement of the Berlin garrison.

    4. Preparations permitting us to extend military assistance to Yugoslavia if Tito requests it.

    5. Beefing up of the naval forces in the Mediterranean with additional Marine elements.

    6. Take public action to inhibit further cultural, scientific and other contacts with the USSR and the other occupying powers.
    See here and here.
    Masi, magniloquent warthog
    E-mail : masi27185@yahoo.com
    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
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  15. #15
    zmrtx
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    Nu prea seamana a contraofensiva,nu?

  16. #16
    Registered User Harald Hårfager's Avatar
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    Si inca ce contraofensiva...

    Pe de alta parte, e interesant de vazut ce era in mintea rusilor, cel putin la nivel de NCO. Ma intreb daca teama de o posibila contraofensiva era reala sau indusa.
    That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem or to be, when it suits him, a coward.

  17. #17
    shell-shocked moebius's Avatar
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    oookay...
    ceausescu a venit la putere in '64 si, din cate stiu eu, in primii ani, adica pana prin '72 sa zicem, si-a format o imagine foarte buna (a gratiat in masa detinutii politici, nivelul de trai era ridicat, nu se inchisesera inca granitele etc). in plus romania a fost cred singura tara comunista care a permis emigrarea evreilor in israel (dupa ce i-a taxat corespunzator , atunci era manescu ministru parca)... la toate astea se adauga si discursul lui in care a zbierat ca nu e de acord cu ce vor sa faca rusii in cehoslovacia, ma rog, ideea e ca avea o imagine foarte buna in occident si cred ca ar fi primit ceva sprijin din partea nato.
    tot atunci mi se pare ca romania era in relatii bune si cu evreii si cu arabii si majoritatea tratativelor dintre astia se duceau pe "placa turnanta" a bucurestiului. asta era perioada cand evreii se cam injurau cu egiptenii...
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

  18. #18
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    Romanii sa se lupte cu rusii?

    Ar fi fost ceva.

    Chiar am auzit de chestia cu laserul intr-a 6-a si credeam ca suntem cei mai tari.

    Probabil ca isi dadusera seama ca Ceausescu e prost si ce rost avea sa puna altu care poate cine stie....
    Exista o poarta spre taramul imaginatiei,prin care tre sa intri inainte de a deveni constient.Cheile cu care o deschizi sunt simboluri.Poti lua idei cu tine,cand pasesti dincolo de poarta,dar tre sa le treci sub forma de simboluri.(Pandora:Incidentul Iisus-Frank Herbert)

  19. #19
    Registered User buggy_ro's Avatar
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    Ceausescu nu a fost prost, (a avut el alte bube mai mari: mania grandorii, influentabilitate, faptul ca a vizitat China ), dar miscarea lui in aceea perioada a fost un risc, el detasandu-se de politica rusilor, castigandu-si astfel o simpatie din partea vesticilor (nu ca ne-ar fi ajutat cu ceva )
    There is no substitute for succes

  20. #20
    Banned Schatten's Avatar
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    Ceausescu a fost prost si chiar miscarea lui o demonstreaza. Daca avea putin cap isi dadea seama ca rusii il pot strivi in orice moment. Printr-o mare minune nu s-a intamplat asta.

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